IMO, "Best" and "Mini Mill" do not belong in the same sentence.  Why?  Because I have been there, and done that, and after TWO "Mini-Mills", I would NEVER buy one again.  Plain and simple, they are too small and light to offer any type of "precision", which means you could do the same things with a drill press and a cross-slide vise. (although beware that doing so would quickly destroy the spindle bearing(s) in a drill press). 

  It's a simple fact.... larger, heavier machines, once "trued up", stay that way longer, and produce far superior results than lighter ones.   Ideally, a large knee mill would be my advice to anyone looking for a mill.(you can do small work on a big mill...but you can't do large work on a small mill)  However, since that's not something in your desires, then I would suggest this as a MINIMUM https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-7-x-27-1-hp-mill-drill-with-stand/g0704

  It's about 370lbs. Runs on 110V/12A, and comes with a stand, which could easily be put on wheels if desired.  I've had this machine in my own shop for over a decade now, using it pretty much exclusively for knifemaking applications.  I've used it so much, that I had to rebuild it (new bearings/races, ect) a couple of years ago... but that's not the machine's fault....I use it that much.   I know of several other Bladesmtihs/Knifemakers who have this same mill, and to date, I've not heard any complaints.

  Honestly, the actual cost of a milling machine really isn't what you need to be concerned with...it's the tooling expense that goes along with it.  Even with the G0704 mill (from above link) I easily have twice the money invested into its vise and tooling versus the cost of the machine.  It doesn't matter how much you spend on a mill, or its size, the quality of the tooling you choose will dictate your results.   

  I'm sure others have differing opinions, and that's OK.  I just know from hard experience that a "Mini-Mill" has no place in my shop. 

  Full disclosure:  I also have a large Knee-Mill that allows me to do larger/heavier work... the worst thing you can do to any milling machine is try to run tooling and/or do jobs that are too large for the machine.  

Posted by: Rod Samdahl

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my guard fit exact on a through-tang guard fits. I have been looking at milling machine but I ha

Have you tried hot fitting the guard to the tang? i find the center mark it with a center punch, then heat it ups and I punch a hole (ok, I cheat and drill a hole cold), then heat it and use a drift (not the one shown a hand held one made from a rail spike) to get it close, lock my blade tang up in my post vise using some leather spacers and tape to preserve the finish (you can do this before you finish polish too) then hot fit it to the tang, take it off the tang and let it cool and i am done (sure you will have an ugly hole and a soft tang but the blade should be able to hide that and a softer tang ins not a bad thing) and its a lot faster than filing and you dont need a mill. .  I have only done this with steel guards so far, it should work with other materials aside from brass (but I just dont like brass in general and dont use it). another option is to drill two holes and then pierce your material with a jeweler saw. You still need to file it, so you want to go a little smaller than the tang. and also you can drill to hole and use a rotory tool instead of files but you still should file it to fit (i have these too)

you can also make a handled drift like this one fairly easily by forging a piece of mild steel and then punching and drifting a hole (or using a hole saw). This is a first attempt, and I was trying to make something I could just swap the punch for and it did not work. You want some wiggle room in it, especially if you're using it with a power hammer or trip hammer (I took a class to learn to make the more fancy version last year). I ended up riveting the mild steel center bar onto it.

 Side not:  milling machines were not created until 1818 (according to Bing search), and files were not really mass-produced as we know them until the Renaissance (according to Wikipedia) and even sand paper was not created until 1835 yet guards were still fitted onto blades in mass. 

Ed Caffrey

Do you have a recommendation for some initial tools for that milling machine we would need and maybe where to look at getting them? If these portions of the machine are the most important then I am sure we need to get those tools from the right spot. Or is it as simple as typing in "end mill set, Milling Vise, maybe collets?" into Grizzly's site?

The only thing we pictured using the milling machine for is Ricasso, guards, and maybe dagger fullers. I know it would be a foolish question to ask; but I will ask it as I want to grow in my knowledge of those things I didn't even know I should be asking:

What am I missing on the reasons or need for a larger milling machine? Obviously I know I have friends that use theirs to make car parts / engineering pieces. But if your bringing up the conversation of recommending a larger mill, then I must be missing why I would use one. (NOTE: I am certain if you are saying it there is a good reason, I just truly don't know what I don't know). 

OK... to the question about why a larger mill?   Its all about weight and rigidity.  Larger mills simply have more material in them, which increases the overall rigidity of the machine, which translates into less tooling breakage, and more accuracy of whatever the task might be.

It's no different than with grinders....Heavy/steel construction typically equals a grinder that once bolted down, will run smoother, quieter, and with far less vibration than a similar grinder made of aluminum or some other lightweight materials.  I always have to laugh whenever I see/hear someone peddling a grinder, and using/touting "Made from strong, lightweight aluminum!" That's a person who obviously has never done any grinding themselves.   Personally, I don't even use aluminum tooling arms on my grinders...because of the vibration and/or chatter they cause, which never happens when using solid steel tooling arms.  

   Very small/Mini Mills simply don't have enough "meat" (either case iron or steel) to prevent flexing, and vibration and all too often this results in terrible accuracy.   In my experience with the Mini Mills, about the largest end mill that I felt safe using was a 3/16" although the manuals stated that 3/8" end mill was the maximum, and 1" face mill was the maximum.  Without exception, EVERY "cut" on my Mini Mills would be "off" because of the end mill being "pulled" into the cut's rotation. What do I mean by "off".... anywhere from approx .020" if I had a brand new end mill, and was feeding it super slow, to as much as .090" (that's nearly 3/32") or more if I had a used/dull end mill, and/or was feeding the material too fast.  The majority of the time the Mini Mills' cuts would be "off" on the high side of those numbers....again, because the machines were not heavy/rigid enough to hold any kind of "tight" tolerances.  

  The first thing that folks who've never owned/operated a milling machine think is:  "I could do things faster and better if I had a milling machine!"  Better? Almost certainly.  Faster? Very likely not.  You mentioned using a mill for guards... That is a huge chunk of my small mill (the Grizzly that I posted the link to) use.  I don't save any time cutting guard slots on the mill, because to be accurate, I have to cut SLOWLY to prevent the end mill "climb", and prevent breaking end mills/tooling.   Is that Grizzly mill "the best" one to buy?  After having/using two "mini mills", and finding the woefully inadequate, it was the best COMPROMISE for me. I wanted a mill that was small enough to fit on a bench, so I didn't have to walk to the "hot" shop/big knee mill to do small things like guards, blade fillers, etc.  The Grizzly mill has a few of what I consider "must haves" in a smaller mill.... First, a "square" column.  This is FAR superior to a mill with a round column because once "trammed" the machine typically holds that much better than round column machines.  Variable speed (without having to change drive "V" belts).  Different materials require different spindle/tooling speeds and different rates of feed.  Turn an end mill too fast, on the wrong material, and all you'll end up with is a very sloppy cut, and a burnt-up end mill. And finally, the last "must have" for me was/is Z axis digital readout (Up/down is called "Z axis").    

In my last post I mentioned about tooling being the biggest expense in a milling machine.  I feel like I should qualify that statement with..."IF you want accuracy and a smooth workflow when using a milling machine...then tooling will be your biggest expense."   That "tooling" typically starts with a milling machine vise.  Its very difficult to find a smaller vise, that is "tight"....meaning it doesn't move or flex during use.  I decided to "cry once" and bought a Kurt brand vise, removed the part on the bottom that offers rotation, and then "T" bolted what was left to the milling machine table.  And god/decent milling machine vise will come with hardened steel jaws.  I removed those and made new jaws out of aluminum with matching "steps" milled into each jaw. This gave me several different option to hold work without doing any damage to the workpiece.

Now.. on to the actual cutting part of "tooling". The bottom line here is that solid carbide, or carbide insert tooling is going to give the cleanest, most accurate cuts, and will last the longest versus "High Speed" tooling.  Just so happens that carbide and carbide insert tooling is the most expensive out there.  If you dig around, you can find "resharpened carbide" end mills and other carbide tooling as a fraction of the price of new....but beware...not all the sellers of "resharpened" carbide are honest.   While searching for sources/buying tooling, I found many who sent me resharpened "high speed" instead of carbide and were trying to charge for carbide.   

 Some milling machine tasks don't require super fine accuracy, such as face milling the forge scale/truing up annealed damascus billets/bars. (that is too much for the bench top mill, and is done on my large Knee mill) For this task, I have several different sizes of face mills, that ALL TAKE THE SAME CARBIDE INSERTS. Thats one way to save some $$ on tooling... before you buy anything that takes carbide inserts...find out the exact insert it takes, and look up the cost.  THEN decide.  The inserts that my tooling takes are some of the most common, and therefore typically the least expensive.

 One final thing...IF you've never worked with machine tools such as mills and lathes.  Many knifemakers live in a world where they measure and think of things in fractions of an Inch.  When working with these tools, it helps very much if you train yourself/your brain to think in Fractions of a Thousandth of an Inch"  In other words, instead of thinking/saying "1/8 Inch", think and say .125"  Thats the beginning tighter tolerance/being more accurate in everything you do with knifemaking.    I did it when I started producing folders, and it carried over into my straight knives...where once I was OK if something about a straight knife was off by 3/32" of an inch, and it wasn't noticeable....but now. if something is "out" .020".... I'm trying to fix it! 🙂

Whew!  Long winded post, but I hope it answers you questions.... I'll come back and post some pics that might help make sense of what I've said.

More to come!

Couldn't edit my last post, so had to make another.  Here are those pics...

First.... the square column:  [img] [/img]

Then the digital readout for the Z-axis ... [img] [/img]

And finally a couple pics of the vise with the aluminum jaws I fabricated:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

 Hope that helps you!!

Ed Caffrey,

As always, wow and Thank You. I want to clarify I was not speaking about interest in a Mini-mill over your recommendation, I was asking specifically why you said (as you repeated in new post); " it was the best COMPROMISE for me". Meaning; if you are recommending that it is the only basic model you would look at, then there would be reasons why your truly recommending something more substantial. What I have learned from you and the other MS on the forum is: when you speak, I listen.

I will admit that I am doing my earnest to take all of your recommendations to heart, whilst making a compromise with my ability to put funds into the craft. In the past year of: practicing techniques, and buying/making tools; I have come to the point where I have to sell knives to purchase more tools. However, when you recommend something I do my earnest to find a way to earn enough to afford what you recommend, because if I don't I don't seem to be able to produce accurate results. 

I currently have 4 through tang or hidden tang knives on my bench, and I am struggling to get the guard fit to not have visible gaps or slide loosely on reduced tang. Since joining this organization a few MS words of "I wish I could get some of my beginner knives back" has wisely kept me from even finishing or selling some knives that I have produced 80% of finish. I know the issues that I am stuck on, is the proper way to design the ricasso within thousands of an inch to correct precision. If it isn't a prefect fit and even on both sides of the spine, I start over. I am looking at brass and copper "practice guards" scattered on the ground, and my knives are getting a little shorter and smaller each fit attempt. The reason I mentioned a mill might be quicker is that the attempts to use drill, files, jewelers saw, a older Dremel tool, and magnifier has probably taken up the better part of my shop time in the past two months. I know this is part of the process and the good recommendation to spend more time in the shop, and more time studying. I agree that I have grown and learned, but I must admit I would like to finish a knife. Maybe I am allowing the failures to affect me improperly, but I will say that with each failure it creates a diversion of interest into another tool building, shop improving, or other easier knife project.

I am very passionate about this trade, it keeps me awake staring at the ceiling at night, and gives me things to look forward and think about while at work. I want to do this, and I want to do this well. I am eager to learn, and I can't quit. This may take me longer in time available, but I will take all advice and keep moving.

"it was the best COMPROMISE for me"... OK Gotcha!  Before I purchased the Grizzly 0704 Mill, I had/have a large Grizzly Knee Mill in my "Hot shop".  That Knee Mill was always intended to be a machine, to make parts for other machines in my shop that were either self produced, or ones that I could no longer get parts for,  AND for cleaning up large Damascus billets before "accordion folding" them.   That area/machine was never "clean and tidy" either.   So... what I wanted/needed was a mill that I could place in my finish shop, where it stays fairly clean and tidy.  The machine would also need to do all the tasks I wanted it to do while holding the tightest tolerance possible.  That was my circumstance, and I had to make some compromises to get what I wanted...those being mainly the tight tolerances (the grizzly is "acceptable", but not super accurate).    Long story short, we NEVER get all that we want... and we always have to compromise on somethings. 😉 

Now for one of those differing opinions that Ed referred to.

When I started making knives back in 2005-2006 I was working out of a shop that was about 300 square feet. I had three major considerations when buying a mill.
1. What was I likely to use it for?
2. How much space did I have in the shop for it?
3. What would it cost to buy the mill and associated tooling?

My uses haven't changed much in the last 18 years. I use the mill for cutting guard slots, precision hole drilling, and surfacing some small parts or handle materials. Occasionally, when I make slip-joint folders, I will cut a nail nick in the blade with a dovetail cutter. Not the type work to justify a full-size mill.

So I knew I was going to look for a smaller, "mini-mill", which brought in citeria #2. How much space did I have? My shop has doubled in size since then, and it's still pretty small by some folk's standards. Floor space has always been a factor and bench top space even more so. I don't think the Grizzly was even available back then and the choices were pretty limited. After a lot of looking and talking with people, I settled on this one: 10" Tabletop Mill Package A - Sherline Products. I know at least one MS who has the same mill. Other than some periodic tightening and replacing the Z axis screw drive, it has needed little maintenance and served me very well over the years. One word of caution: The endmills that come with the package are practically useless. Get some good carbide end mills from MSC/ENCO, McMaster-Carr, or other reputable online machine tools retailer and use the collet set. I have cut slots as narrow as .063" wide with surprising accuracy. I mounted the mill to a heavy base and can easily store it under the bench when not in use to keep my benchtop space available for other tasks.

The initial cost was good for my budget and I have easily spent 3x that on various tooling over the years. Ed is 100% correct that the money you spend on tooling is much more important than the initial cost of the mill. Learning to use a mill is a lot like learning to play a musical intrument. There is no substitute for practice and good quality tools aren't cheap, but they are critical to success.

So you need to really ask yourself, what you "need" a mill to do before you buy one. I have watched Kyle Royer videos and he seems to do really well cutting guard slots with a drill press and some files. I can do that as well and often do. It's not that difficult and sometimes it is faster than using the mill.

As for your problem with the through tang design and getting a guard tight to the tapered tang, you might consider changing the shape of the tang as a possible solution, rather than thinking a mill will solve that problem. Mills cut straight down, unless you angle the head to achieve a slant. So shape the tang appropriately where the guard and spacer package (if applicable) will sit and fit the slot to the tang section. Let the taper progress from there.

 Joshua C States,

Thank you! Those are exactly the right questions, and you asked it much more simply than I did. I will take a look at everything and make a judgement call for those items. Thank you for the suggestion!

So glad this topic came up again - I'm still in the market for my first mill and will probably go with a small(er) mill for space considerations - I have access to a Bridgeport at a local community shop for bigger jobs.  Use this smaller mill mostly for guards/bolsters, spacers and the like.

My question relates to machine speed - some of the machining charts I have list speeds of 5-6,000 RPM for 0.125" mills in softer materials (brass).  And most of the smaller mills only seem to go to 2500 or so RPM.  I typically use 416 SS or pattern weld (1095/15N20) for guards, but don't want to limit myself.

Do folks with smaller mills run into issues with milling the softer metals that typically use higher cutter speeds?  Thanks, all!

Steve