I was in my shop talking about kerosene welding with Shawn McIntyre when Mike Wms called to discuss the same subject.

I've only used K-1 kerosene, and can't report on any substitute.

I'm fully converted to Kero-welding, because i'm convinced it gives me "cleaner" looking damascus. But, like everything else, the devil's still in the details, at least for me.

The point of kero, for me, is not to have anything, including flux, in between layers, before or after welding. The after is obvious, and not having flux before, just means it doesn't have to be expelled completely at the time of welding.

I had, in fact, noticed that the very edges of the layers looked "crinkley" and not welded as fully as when I used flux. The rest seemed welded better than flux, though. This problem became more obvious when "W" welding, where the edges were what needed to be ground clean for the next weld. I think this may be what Mike and Don mean by "black lines" needing to be ground out.

What I've always done anyway, is to take two welding passes before drawing out, so, since the first pass had welded the layers clean, and no flux could now get in between the layers, is just flux after the first pass. I only flux that one time,( with anhydrous, BTW) and the edges seem to seal up better , without any chance of contaminating the already welded billet.

If this seems like belts and suspenders, or just too much anal compulsion, that may be the case. However, I mess up enough so that any edge I can get is fine with me.

John

John, thanks for the info. I did another billet with kero (lamp oil) but added a small bit of borax. All went well. I'll get some K-1 before next forging and give it a try.

I understand using kerosene in cans is at least a little different than this but I've not heard of folks having near-surface black lines... not that I've heard everything, mind you.

Mike, no black lines with a can billet, all welds up good. And I don't use kero, wd-40, or anything in cans anymore <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmiths.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Thanks Mr. White for all the info.

I don't have a lot of experience making damascus but decided to give this a try last Saturday. I made 2 billets, used K-1 on both. They both stuck. The only draw back I see is waiting for the billet to cool between welds. I think a little better planning on my part, will help make the process more efficient. Just finished cutting, grinding and stacking for the next weld. I have the billets soaking in K-1 till I can fire the forge again.

I like this method. No flux splatter!

Pete, "waiting for the billet to cool between welds"?

Dipping a hot billet in kero is much more exciting! <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmiths.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

I'll have to take your word for it Don <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmiths.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

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Mike, no black lines with a can billet, all welds up good. And I don't use kero, wd-40, or anything in cans anymore <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmiths.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

I missed this last night, Don... Is this with powder-filled cans? Nothing to burn O2 and welded air tight?

Mike

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I'll have to take your word for it Don <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmiths.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

exciting,heck yea!I had just plunged my still fairly hot billet into the bucket and was semi engulfed in a white cloud of partially vaporized kero, next thought through my head was Tora-Bora and fuel air bomb, and am I going to be here a few moments from now, i live in the hills and the wind was luckily blowing away from tin shop and 2500 degree forge.This is a great thread and to me reinforces the idea of keeping our minds receptive to trying new ideas even if ultimately they dont pan out! kinzea l thompson

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I missed this last night, Don... Is this with powder-filled cans? Nothing to burn O2 and welded air tight?

Mike

Yeap, Mike. Cans are filled with solids and powder, dry and welded air tight. Works great.

Kinzea, that could have been real bad! <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmiths.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

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Yeap, Mike. Cans are filled with solids and powder, dry and welded air tight. Works great.

Thank you, Don...

Mike

"When the kerosene soaked billet is placed into the fire, the lighter volatile elements quickly burn off, leaving behind carbon. The carbon with its higher ignition point remains between the layers of steel until the steel heats to the temperature where combustion of the carbon can begin. The proper reducing forge fire, being oxygen deficient, forces the carbon to seek oxygen from a source other than the atmosphere of the fire to sustain combustion. The carbon finds the oxygen it requires in the forge scale (i.e., iron oxide; FeO) on the steel. By pulling the oxygen from the iron oxide, the carbon effectively changes the iron oxide back into iron (Fe)."

I spoke to a very knowlegeable blacksmith friend of mine about this kerosene welding thing. The above is precisely what he said was happening. He even had a nomenclature at the ready for the process in question, which unfortuneately I can't remember, but will check in later with.

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"When the kerosene soaked billet is placed into the fire, the lighter volatile elements quickly burn off, leaving behind carbon. The carbon with its higher ignition point remains between the layers of steel until the steel heats to the temperature where combustion of the carbon can begin. The proper reducing forge fire, being oxygen deficient, forces the carbon to seek oxygen from a source other than the atmosphere of the fire to sustain combustion. The carbon finds the oxygen it requires in the forge scale (i.e., iron oxide; FeO) on the steel. By pulling the oxygen from the iron oxide, the carbon effectively changes the iron oxide back into iron (Fe)."

I spoke to a very knowlegeable blacksmith friend of mine about this kerosene welding thing. The above is precisely what he said was happening. He even had a nomenclature at the ready for the process in question, which unfortuneately I can't remember, but will check in later with.

This makes a lot of sense. I have been talking with Ron Newton on the process quite a bit. He has used nothing but K1 for years with complete success. He told me that not only does he not bother to grind the mill scale from his 10xx steel but says that his 15N20 has surface rust which he doesn't bother to remove and hasn't had a bad weld yet.

It's a technique that I will be exploring a lot more in the near future.

Gary

I'm glad to hear that I didn't post a theory that was incorrect; or at least there is someone else who believes it to be fact. Maybe I'm not as dumb as I look!!!!!

Steve you are NOT as dumb as you look believe me. I finally got the info for you guys. The process in question is formally called; an "Oxidation Reduction Reaction". It is described in detail, as you describe it, in a book by E.N. Hartley on blast furnace technology of the 17th century.

LOL!!! SO..........JD, are you saying that I'm not dumb, but I actually do LOOK dumb???? <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmiths.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//laugh.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

I'm sure you meant that to be a compliment, but your wording of it really cracked me up!!! You made my night!

Oxidation Reduction Reaction

WOW! Type this into a search engine and see what you get. I feel dumb again.