Hello Ed. I have to admire your fortitude. Hammering damascus billets by hand is kind of like driving across Texas, it will take a while. I did it once, and from then on decided I needed a press or power hammer. Basically I do not know of shortcuts for it. Just keep on hammering. You can use the pein on your hammer like a fullering tool to help draw the billet out. Just hit the billet with the pein and then flatten the billet with the face. It may save some time. It will still be a long process. I wish you luck and let us know how it goes.

Brion

I'm like you-no press and no power hammer, but unlike you I haven't tried damascus by hand yet <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />. I plan on it, so I'm glad you started this thread. By the way, what steels are you using, what dimensions, and how many layers did start with? Did you weld the stack or wire it? I look forward to seeing how it goes.

Jeremy

Ed,

As someone who regularly reduces heavier material by hand, I can not only recommend that you use the anvil horn as much as possible but forge on the hot side. For two reasons (actually more). To make it possible for you to get this process completed without giving up and to preserve the pattern, no matter which one, probably random. In addition, heating often to stay in the upper forging heat range, will give you needed breaks. Plan it out and concentrate on the temperatures, but dont get it too hot especially when the billet gets thinner. Use as big a hammer as you can swing, but even that has it's practical limits. One more thing. Get a healthy young striker if your anvil can handle it.

Brion,

Thank you for the support <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />, and the advice. I clearly need a press or power hammer, as I find damascus and the welding process fascinating. However, I am still using a Craftsman 2" x 48" belt grinder, and should probably get a good grinder first. Then a press or power hammer. By the way, which would be best? I do hope to eventually make more complicated patterns, and I figure I'll get one or the other as a reward to myself when I get my Journeyman Smith stamp. Any way, until then, I guess it's by hand...

Lin,

I started using the anvil horn simply because using the anvil face was taking forever <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//blink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />. It definitely helped. Can I use the hammer peen and the anvil horn together, or will that create too much stress and possible sheer a weld? Also, do I need to flux between heats when I'm drawing, or only when welding? I found I lost less to scale when I fluxed every heat, but I also don't want to reline my forge every session. Last question (for now), I started with 9 layers. If I triple that on my next weld, then forge to a round bar and perform a tight twist, will I get a bold but active pattern, or should I take the layer count higher?

Jeremy,

This is only my second billet (my first was very small...very small), but I will recommend to anyone reading this thread to do it by hand at least once. I have learned a great deal from my experience, and I know it will really help me when I do get a press or power hammer. And as Brion said, it takes a long time. To answer your questions, I am using 1084 and 15N20. Each piece of the 1084 is 1/4" x 1 1/4" x 6", and the 15N20 is 1 1/4" x 6". I started with 9 layers, 4 of the 15N20 and 5 of the 1084, with 1084 on the outside. I ground the scale off of the 1084 before proceeding. I lined the pieces up and clamped them in a post vise, then welded two beads down each end and one on each side. Welded on a rebar handle and went to town. By the way, make sure the handle is thick where it attaches to the billet. It will reduce in size as you work through the process, and come apart. I'm on my second handle on this billet. If you have never forge welded anything, I recommend checking out this link:

http://www.lucianaveryblacksmith.com/smithing.htm

Mr. Avery has provided several short videos of blacksmithing processes and they are all interesting to watch.

I'll post some pics, but it may be a while <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> .

Good steel selection Ed, those two steels weld very well. I usually flux on the weld and then I will flux again and make sure the weld is set, some John White coming through there. After that for the drawing I do not use flux. I do get it hot, as Lin says in the upper forging range.

You could use the pein and horn and I think you would be okay, just don't get too forceful. Think of the stress when using a power hammer, it is hitting pretty hard, but over a larger area.

Ed, on a twist pattern I usually like a layer count in the 70-100 range. 27 layers would give you a bolder pattern with a tight twist and would look fine I would think on a smaller knife.

As far as press or hammer. In my perfect shop I would have both. The press does better on some things and the hammer on others. The hammer will work better for drawing out billets, in my opinion. One thing to consider is noise. If you live in a neighborhood or have houses close a press might be better. They are quieter. I am used to my little giant and would not let it go, but a press would be nice.

Enjoy yourself and I agree, everyone should try working damascus by hand. Just for the experience. I think my first billet was 28 layers, all done by hand. I remember the sweat and sore arms well.

Brion

Ed-

Thanks for the information. I did my first several knives with only files (no belt grinder....) which made for some sore arms and slow going at times, but I wouldn't trade it. I think doing things "the hard way" can teach us things we wouldn't otherwise get to experience and I know for me, I learn more from those challenging moments. I actually have some 1084 and 15N20 in darned near the dimensions you used, so I know one of these days, I'll give it a go. Also, good website you have posted there. I've only got a little experience forge welding (only 3 layer San Mai) at a friend's place where he has a press and a power hammer. By the way, what are you using for your flux? I have some regular Borax, but I hear the anhydrous is better stuff... Thanks again.

Jeremy

Brion,

Thanks again for the info and advice. I thank the ABS forum for the steel selection (I saw it somewhere here).

I think I'll tough it out and go for two more weld/draw operations and 81 layers, based on what you've said.

I'm on 2.5 acres, so noise isn't a concern...just finances! One day...

Jeremy,

Try doing a "drop the tongs" forge weld on some thinner stock...very challenging and you need a warm anvil.

I use regular 20 Mule Team Borax. I don't keep it in an air tight container, just the box it came in, and it works great, for me. I've never used anhydrous borax before 'cause I figure that if it gets exposed to air for any length of time, it absorbs moisture and becomes "hydrous", but I could be very wrong and I hope someone who actually knows chimes in on this.

Ed C.

Ed, like you, I made my first Damascus blades by drawing them out with a hand hammer. I will describe the method and tools that I made / used to make the process more efficient.

I used a round bar that was about 1 1/4" in diameter and welded a piece of square stock to fit my hardie hole onto the the side and end of the round bar It looked like a L shape. The round bar should be about as long as the face of your anvil and when in place will run down the center of the face of your anvil. This seems to work better than the horn as it is a tighter radius so it draws faster and you can do your heavy work over the center mass of the anvil. Teh billet is placed on top of the rod.

I set my anvil height so that with my billet on the round rod, my handle was about knee high. I would hold the handle on my billet between my knees and use both hands on a 12 pound cross pien to draw the billet out. By simply bending your knees forward, you can advance the billet across the round rod as you pound on it.

You can produce beautiful randon patterns by hand hammering.

Good luck

Brian

Brian,

Thanks, that sounds like a great idea. I'm going to try it. I could tell I was losing a lot of power to the horn. Can I just use mild steel for the round bar, or do I need something better? By the way, did you ever end up with the handle...well, I think I'll wear a cup <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//blink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />.

Thanks again, and I'll let you know how it goes.

Ed Clarke

Ed

Just use mild steel for the round bar.

As far as the other question -- no I never had a problem. Any misplaced hammer blows usually just caused either the billet to bend if it was thin enough, or the handle to bend next to the billet (keep the billet hot), but protect yourself as you see fit.

Although this process is still a bit slow (compared to a press or hammer), it is much faster than using a small hammer and wearing out just one of your arms. I shortened the hammer handle a bit so I could comfortably swing it in front of me with both hands. This process takes a bit of dexterity as you are using your hands eyes and legs all together.

Brian

Had my son pick up the steel today for the bottom fuller. I'm off to the shop to make another tool <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//cool.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />.

Thanks again!

I've only done two damascus billets so far but what I learned doing the first one helped speed the second considerably. The first thing was I cut the original billet in half and worked them as two. I got two folds in my first billet, as I recall 1" by 8" by 7-8 layers, before I realized the info I had gotten on forge welding was written by people with presses and power hammers. Working with less material helped alot and I still had enough steel to make a good sized hunter. The other thing I did was make a spring fuller. Just welded some round stock onto mild 1" flat and folded it over. I don't have a proper anvil so I welded it a big chunk of steel to hold it still. This made it alot faster to draw out, and while the first billet took me several forging sessions the second took just one.

Ed, Have you finished your knife yet? I would love to see pics, there is something special when you first see the pattern. As a beginner alot of it was just, wow I got it to work, but I get the feeling it will still be special after I've done it a hundred times. Justin