I've run into those type of folks before too. Don't let it bother you. Those are what I call "Arm Chair Experts"..... they have a head full of things they have read, and have little or no knowledge/experience of exactly how damascus is made, or what it takes to do so. They are usually just looking to "stir the pot" in an effort to satisfy their own egos.

Anybody with any time in, or knowledge of the modern custom knife world knows that the term "Damascus" is "Pattern Welded Steel", and the other stuff, that this person insisted is "damascus", is referred to as "Wootz".

Just ignore it, that individual is more interested in basking in his ego then anything else.

I enjoyed this when I saw it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISSGL4Ns2qw

As with many things, I have found there are three levels of knowledge/experience on this subject. The first level is basic introductory knowledge with a lot of ignorance. ( Now let me clarify that whenever I use the term “ignorance” it is never a pejorative, what I am saying is the exact meaning of the word- i.e. knowledge that has not yet been acquired. If I think somebody is stupid I have no problem using that word, but true stupidity is much less common that simple ignorance.*) At the first level folks know as much, or perhaps a little more, as the average person on the street, and because of it they may make some gross error or unknowingly propagate some myths by repeating what they have heard, but may also be cautious because they are aware of what they may not know. But more importantly, they are an open sponge ready to learn what it is they do not know if the topic interests them.

The next level becomes more problematic. These folks have looked into the topic enough to feel they are armed with enough knowledge to proclaim themselves “experts” at something (that in itself is a red flag). Many at this level doom themselves to this level permanently because they will shout down any information that challenges their beliefs and their self-esteem as “experts”. They have done a little reading and have reference material (that they are often grossly misinterpreting or treat as scripture rather than data) and there is probably no arguing with them until, by some miracle, they make it to the third level.

The third level are those that other people, knowledgeable in the field, would consider actual experts and the main thing that makes them that is that they know enough to know what they do not know, and understand that. At this level all the black and white dogma simply for the sake of wining every argument, regardless of the facts, starts to look much more embarrassing than simply admitting that the world is a much more complicated place than we wished it was. Arguing the semantics rather than the core facts is a waste of valuable time for these people, and thus they usually have better things to do than spend time on the internet being challenged by people from the second group, but they do enjoy helping people in the first level avoid the second level.

In my career, the word “Damascus” has probably revealed these three levels more than anything. To the lay person Damascus is a town in Syria, and also knives and shotgun barrels that have patterns in them. Then there are folks who have read a bit and are out to impress others by being the word police regarding the use of the term “Damascus.” They will be quick to point out your inferior intellect should you refer to anything not made in a crucible as “Damascus”, after all, they have read the Verhoeven-Pendray paper so they are an “expert.”

Eventually, if you really care about studying the topic you will be exposed to people like Ric Furrer, and Dr. Ann Feuerbach, Al Pendray and others who really have better things to do than nitpick the word “Damascus.” And then oddly enough, at the cutting edge of that knowledge you come full circle and “Damascus” is once again just a town in Syria, which legend and myth has sort tangled up with steel that has a pattern. But then you have to wonder about damask cloth or any number of mediums that are damascened because of the patterns they display. Crucible steel was made in many locations in India as well as the northern middle east but not in Damascus, hmmm… and those making it didn’t call it Damascus, or even wootz (which is a much later corruption of the ancient terms)… and on and on. As it turns out you simply cannot turn the real facts of such a complex topic into black and white canon, and you show much more dignity in revealing that you know enough to know that you can’t know it all.

*well maybe not at many places on the internet, where stupidity, or willful ignorance, is positively rampant <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//dry.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='<_<' />

I prefer the terms crucible steel and pattern welded, but that is just because I feel they are more descriptive. That said the term Damascus is pretty much universally understand to refer to any steel that will show intentional pattern on the surface when etched...

this is not a new argument, I read a paper from the Victorian era about the same argument over a pair of swords.

MP

And here I thought the term "Damascus Steel" was invented to describe steel that was intended to look like Wootz, but wasn't.

Eventually, if you really care about studying the topic you will be exposed to people like Ric Furrer, and Dr. Ann Feuerbach, Al Pendray and others who really have better things to do than nitpick the word “Damascus.”

The above comment pretty well sums it up for me.

I agree that there seems to be layers of knowledge that are only revealed by much time and effort. I tell all of my "students" that sooner or later they will need to get away from those who stagnate at their present level. Only by having their current skills and techniques challenged will they be forced to grow. Some are able to do this by challenging themselves. Most will always need someone or something to aspire to. But that's another subject.

It's hard to soar with Eagles when you hang around Buzzards. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

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I prefer the terms crucible steel and pattern welded, but that is just because I feel they are more descriptive...

I use the same terms to indicate those specific items, with "Damascus" as an overall general term and, interestingly enough, never encounter any controversy or confusion among people who work or deal with it regularly, it is normally only with people with a passing exposure to the subject that I get any parsing of terms or need to explain.

|quoted:

I use the same terms to indicate those specific items, with "Damascus" as an overall general term and, interestingly enough, never encounter any controversy or confusion among people who work or deal with it regularly, it is normally only with people with a passing exposure to the subject that I get any parsing of terms or need to explain.

I have started to do the same but even so I always feel funny describing a seax or viking sword with a low layer multi bar pattern weld as Damascus. like something out of Dungeons and dragons weapons manual. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

MP

deleted my post.

I get this a lot. The fact is - there is Wootz Damascus and Pattern Welded Damascus - and yes they are different. But some, like your youtube friend, don't understand that they are both categorized as Damascus. Several years ago I wrote Dr. Verhoeven who worked with Al Pendray and this is what he wrote to me in an email in which he refers to both as Damascus. Keep in mind I was asking about a time frame here but the info is excellent:

“I am fairly certain that pattern welded Damascus predates wootz Damascus by several hundred years. It depends somewhat on how general one wants to be with the definition of pattern welding. The first iron was smelted around 1000 BC and we call it bloomery iron. Because it was relatively soft we know that early smiths began to co-forge it with pieces of iron they had carburized (added carbon to) to make steel. There is evidence that this happened only several centuries after 1000 BC. But smiths did not begin to make pattern welded steels like we know them with swirls and curves forged in to make the more attractive patterns until centuries later, as far as I have read. But I think it probable that such pattern welded Damascus predates the wootz Damascus which also was forged to produce the swirling patterns.

For my money the best estimate of when wootz made the scene was done by Bronson in a review article published in the 90s which we quote in that 1998 Journal of Metals article available on the web. My recollection is his date was sometime before 500 AD which I have guessed means 200 – 500 AD.” Scientific evidence by Panseri, Smith and Wadsworth supports the development of pattern welding techniques as early as 7th century B.C.

Pattern welding is a technique in which alternating layers of different alloys are stacked on top of each other and forged together into a single piece of steel. As early smith’s technical skills began to improve, pattern welded techniques developed. As the centuries progressed, blacksmiths began to combine the technological advances of carburization and layer welding and began to innovate various designs in the pattern welded bars which in turn were incorporated into the finished product, most notably the sword. These early smiths would alternate layers of hard steel for its cutting function with the softer steel and wrought iron for their greater flexibility and resistance to breaking. Once these different alloys were forged together they were folded, twisted or otherwise manipulated to create different patterns within the steel."

Dr. John Verhoven Iowa State University

Hope this helps - Rob Thomas

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I have started to do the same but even so I always feel funny describing a seax or viking sword with a low layer multi bar pattern weld as Damascus. like something out of Dungeons and dragons weapons manual. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

MP

I think we should hold our ground on that point Matt, out of habit I always refer to a blade from the late Roman period to the end of the Viking period as pattern welded unless it is a distinctly different make up, such as simple piled construction. But often when speaking with a member of the general public about a multi-bar construction blade of that period they will refer to it as Damascus, I just let it slide since we both understand what we are talking about and hope that they pick up on my use of the other term. It is more important to educate the public about those fantastic blades than risking turning them off by getting stuck on a single word.