I have sometimes added the extra 15N20 piece just to see the effect. It really depends on the pattern I am wanting in the blade. A twist can benefit from some extra layers, but a ladder, in my opinion, needs the consistency of the other in order to achieve the shimmering chatoyance that I like. I also stack mine with the thicker layers of 1084 on the outside.

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I have sometimes added the extra 15N20 piece just to see the effect. It really depends on the pattern I am wanting in the blade. A twist can benefit from some extra layers, but a ladder, in my opinion, needs the consistency of the other in order to achieve the shimmering chatoyance that I like. I also stack mine with the thicker layers of 1084 on the outside.

Same for me. 15n20 compresses much slower than the 84.

Thanks, guys. I'm going to try it on some random pattern just to see the effect. I would expect to get some thicker & some thinner shiny layers but that may be interesting.

It may take a while as around two hours at a time in front of the forge is about all that I can do in this heat. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> I'm sure ready for some fall weather. Maybe with August behind us it will cool down some.

Gary

Gary,

I would first ask you what the thicknesses of your 1084 and 15N20 are in the initial billet. If, like me, you are starting with 3/16" 1084 and .06 15N20, I can understand your concern. I will sometimes insert a piece of the 15N20, but only on the first fold, never on subsequent folds. It really depends on how far I've drawn out the initial billet before I fold (or stack) and how much grinding I did on the outer layers before the fold. If I had to really grind a lot, I will not add the 15N20 because I have already thinned the outer layers of 1084 down to the point where they are probably close to 1/2 as thick as the other 1084 layers, so I will not expect to see a "fat" layer in the pattern. If, on the other hand, I did very little grinding before the fold, I will insert the 15N20 to try and keep the layering evenly spaced.

This brings me to another question for the Damascus gurus:

Has anyone tried patterning with eccentric layering, but layering with a mirror image across the center of the billet?

To clarify, lets say that the letter C stands for the 1084 (or simple steel) and the letter N stands for the 15N20. An eccentric stacked billet would look something like this:

CCCNNNCCNNCNNCCNNNCCC with 21 layers in the initial billet.

Joshua,

I do a similar stack occasionally, especially when doing a "W" pattern. Often I will use some 1/16" carbon steel mixed in with 1/8" & 1/4". It's a technique that I got from Ray Kirk.

I used something similar for this blade:

Gary

Gary, I just weld up a billet of 15N20 and draw it out to whatever thickness I want and put a chunk on the outside.

I never did understand a piece of tool steel on each side if I was trying to make an evenly made billet.

All,

I am just wondering if this is a hold over from attempting to weld steels that did weld easily to each other after the first weld. To clarify, steels with certain amounts of nickel and chromium do not weld easily to other steels unless they are sanded very clean. For example, chromium tends to move to the surface of steel forming chromium oxide. Pure nickle sheets were commonly used back in the early 90s to get high contrast in the billets and nickel just does not weld easily to steel. I think the experiences of many smiths with different alloy steels led to generalization that if you had the low alloy steel (e.g., 1080, W2, 1095, etc) on the outside, when the billet was folded or stacked after the first initial weld, all the mating surfaces would be the low alloy steel to low alloy steel. Welding 1084 to 1084 is easy. This would especially be true if the cut and fold method were used (draw the billet out twice or three times its length, cut on the hardy, wire brush the scale, fold tight, and stick it back in the forge for the next weld). The cut and fold method can do well with steels that weld easy. However, put a moderate alloy steel in the mix and surface oxidation makes the weld more risky. I do not see the problem with 15N20 especially if the billet is drawn out, cut, sanded clean, stacked tight and then welded.

Dan

Good explanation, Dan.

Thank you.

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I do not see the problem with 15N20 especially if the billet is drawn out, cut, sanded clean, stacked tight and then welded.

Dan