Justin,

I don't think the burner type makes a difference although I use a blown ribbon burner for what I feel is a more even heat. That being said, to me the criteria is to not have the burner aimed directly on the steel, but rather in a manner where the whole chamber is heated.

John

Justin,

I use a blown vertical forge for welding. I have used a blown horizontal forge a lot for welding too. I think the vertical forge has a more even temperature heating area than a horizontal. I use blown forges, because that is all that I know how to build. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//blink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

A blown vertical is just stupid simple to build and use.

Extremely versatile.

Hot! (if needed)

You would have to work really hard to make something go wrong.

It's sort of like the old 4020 John Deere or a 350 small block.

Bullet proof.

Anybody can build and use one.

I've seen countless discussions on building these idiot-proof forges and it seems everyone just always over-thinks it.

I have three different sizes and use the same burner/blower on the two large ones.

If I had known at the beginning where I would end up with these forges, I would have made all three use the same burner/blower.

Thanks for the input. When I first heard about forging knives, I came across Ron Reil's site on atmospheric burners. I made a couple and have been using one ever since. I am sold on the idea of a vertical forge. I like the idea of the combustion happening below where the billet is heating. Seems like it would be much easier to control the atmosphere around the billet.

I am curious if there is any real benefit to a blown burner over an atmospheric burner. I can make an atmospheric burner for about 20$ but a blower costs quite a bit more.

John, I am fairly familiar with your burner design but I'm not sure how it points down in a horizontal forge without aiming at the work piece.

|quoted:

Thanks for the input. When I first heard about forging knives, I came across Ron Reil's site on atmospheric burners. I made a couple and have been using one ever since. I am sold on the idea of a vertical forge. I like the idea of the combustion happening below where the billet is heating. Seems like it would be much easier to control the atmosphere around the billet.

I am curious if there is any real benefit to a blown burner over an atmospheric burner. I can make an atmospheric burner for about 20$ but a blower costs quite a bit more.

John, I am fairly familiar with your burner design but I'm not sure how it points down in a horizontal forge without aiming at the work piece.

My burner comes in from the side about 3" up from the forge floor. The forge is 18" long so there is room to draw out the billet. Excuse my ignorance, but it seems to me that with a vertical forge, the billet is hanging over somewhat of an abyss and has no support. Am I missing something?

John

|quoted:

Thanks for the input. When I first heard about forging knives, I came across Ron Reil's site on atmospheric burners. I made a couple and have been using one ever since. I am sold on the idea of a vertical forge. I like the idea of the combustion happening below where the billet is heating. Seems like it would be much easier to control the atmosphere around the billet.

I am curious if there is any real benefit to a blown burner over an atmospheric burner. I can make an atmospheric burner for about 20$ but a blower costs quite a bit more.

John, I am fairly familiar with your burner design but I'm not sure how it points down in a horizontal forge without aiming at the work piece.

My burner comes in from the side about 3" up from the forge floor. The forge is 18" long so there is room to draw out the billet. Excuse my ignorance, but it seems to me that with a vertical forge, the billet is hanging over somewhat of an abyss and has no support. Am I missing something?

Also, the ribbon burner is infinitely more efficient than any other blown configuration.

John

You do not need to get any more length of work hot than you can work/forge at one time. You can only forge maybe 6-8 inches of steel before it gets too cold to forge. You don't need 18" of steel hot at one time.

That said, in my oval forge I can effectively heat 14-16 inches of steel.

I have welded a 4" square extension to the forge body out the back door which effectively extends the forge body. That helps to keep the steel hot that you pass through the main forge body and it's not hanging out in a dead cold room atmosphere.

I tack weld most of my work to handles of re-bar. This allows the work to hang over the abyss with no danger.

Otherwise use tongs. There are few issues with this.

Every forge has it's draw backs.

I find the blown vertical forge to have the fewest.

The burners are simple 1 1/2" pipe nipples. Like I said earlier, I use one burner/blower combo to run two forges. I might have 40 bucks in the burner / 2 forges = 20 bucks each.

The floor of my forges are 3-4 inches of kitty litter. (And the bottoms are removable) I've been forging Damascus in one forge for 10 years. Still looks like the day I built it.

Split one forge lengthwise from top to bottom - welded in 8" webs - and effectively lengthened the forging area without having to go super large in diameter. Worked well.

I can not think of any other reason to build a different type of forge or blower unless I was going to make swords.

|quoted:

My burner comes in from the side about 3" up from the forge floor. The forge is 18" long so there is room to draw out the billet. Excuse my ignorance, but it seems to me that with a vertical forge, the billet is hanging over somewhat of an abyss and has no support. Am I missing something?

John

|quoted:

You do not need to get any more length of work hot than you can work/forge at one time. You can only forge maybe 6-8 inches of steel before it gets too cold to forge. You don't need 18" of steel hot at one time.

That said, in my oval forge I can effectively heat 14-16 inches of steel.

I have welded a 4" square extension to the forge body out the back door which effectively extends the forge body. That helps to keep the steel hot that you pass through the main forge body and it's not hanging out in a dead cold room atmosphere.

I tack weld most of my work to handles of re-bar. This allows the work to hang over the abyss with no danger.

Otherwise use tongs. There are few issues with this.

Every forge has it's draw backs.

I find the blown vertical forge to have the fewest.

The burners are simple 1 1/2" pipe nipples. Like I said earlier, I use one burner/blower combo to run two forges. I might have 40 bucks in the burner / 2 forges = 20 bucks each.

The floor of my forges are 3-4 inches of kitty litter. (And the bottoms are removable) I've been forging Damascus in one forge for 10 years. Still looks like the day I built it.

Split one forge lengthwise from top to bottom - welded in 8" webs - and effectively lengthened the forging area without having to go super large in diameter. Worked well.

I can not think of any other reason to build a different type of forge or blower unless I was going to make swords.

Thanks for the info Karl. I will have to say though, an 18" heat when drawing out is very manageable as I have a big hammer that moves steel when necessary. As far as the forge, you have to do what works for you and I can appreciate that. That being said, a look at the ribbon burner may be well warranted in that you will have a much more even heat and save 20-30% on your gas bill. It's why glass blowers went to ribbon burners years ago. Best part is that you can make them for very little cost. Also, they don't sound like a jet engine and you can actually carry on a conversation when wanted.

John

Justin,

The two differences I am aware of between venturi and blower stlye burners is portability and environmental conditions.

The venturi forge can go anywhere and be set-up with no electric required, great for demo's. The blown forge needs electric or a DC blower motor and a battery.

The blown forge will burn the same at -20 or +120 degrees, sealevel or 6000 feet, dead calm or 60 mph wind, 0% humidity or raining buckets. The venturi forge can be tricky if not impossible to adjust for all conditions.

I've had a Don Fogg style blown vertical forge for close to 20 years and someday I'm going to build a horizontal venturi forge just for demo's.

Steve Seib

Thanks to everyone for their advice.

Can anyone tell me what type of blower I should be using? I did a quick search and many forge blowers were very expensive. I did find some at Blacksmith's Depot that were more reasonable, but I'm not sure on how much air they should be blowing.

Thanks again, Justin

I'm using an old shopvac that has a "blowing" air port on it. I have a valve on my air duct so I can regulate how much air the forge gets. I have also used the small exhaust blower for a high efficiency furnace. Some have enough air and some don't with those.

I *HIGHLY* recommend the forge blowers that Kayne and Son's sell. You can find cheaper blowers, but most of them, regardless of stated CFM output, have very low pressure compared to the ones K&S sells.

Everybody that I know who has one, swears by them. I used to use cheap Surplus Center blowers, a handful of which I've killed, when I finally got the K&S blowers, I was amazed.

Kyle's shop vac blower does sound like a good option though, I imagine it has much higher pressures than the usual 60-100 cfm blowers.

Edit to add: The smallest blower (65cfm) they carry will be sufficient for a normal sized forge, I've got a 112 cfm blower in my smallest blown forge (which accommodates a 6x1.5 by 4" tall stack easily), and I have to damper it almost entirely. The 112 blower is big enough for almost any size gas forge I've seen, and the bigger 164cfm blower is designed to run a large coke or coal forge, which needs much more air volume. Even still in my coke forge, I never have to open the damper more than half way.

These blowers are serious.

Thank for your replies. That's good to know about the Kayne & Son blowers. Also that my shop vac might work. I have heard of people using them for smelting but never as part of there everyday forging setup.

Thanks again, Justin

Justin,

One of your nice knives could easily pay for all your forge parts <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> .

In the mid eighties, when I was shoeing horses, I was using a horizontal atmospheric "farriers forge", straight blast. I moved the two burners closer together, and was welding smallish billets (enough to finish one large Bowie)and barely getting to welding heat. The flame hit the steel. It worked though.

Probably because I was a newbie, and the fact that all the forges in the new school were coal, but when I attended the opening of the ABS school in 1988, no one wanted to here about me welding with propane except a few other new guys.

In 1992 I constructed a Zowada forge, which is cast using a basketball or other sphere to cast around, to cause a swirl. Water tank overhead, connected by hoses to a stainless jacket welded around the blown nozzle to cool it. It worked excellent, such an even heat, and at the time I thought it was well worth the pain to build it. The newest and best at the time. Very inefficient till the shell got hot though, say 1/2 hour or so.

Then I built a blown horizontal. It also worked great for welding, but still had the typical horizontal hot spot.

Then came the Vertical Fogg Forge. No hot spots, very controllable. Excellent for heat treating blades too!

Recently, I built a vertical atmospheric. It welds great too.

The Vert. atmospheric was the fastest and easiest to build, though I bought the burner, so it was the most expensive I ever built.

I think most people master the tools they have at hand, so for them, they are the best.

So now I have three completely different forges. All work well.

Now after my coffee inspired ramble, my answer to your ? is that the only advantage a blown vert. forge has had for me, is that I have more air available than I can use(blower size dependent, and provided I have a big enough inlet tube). So, like Karl does, you can use one burner set-up on different sized forges.

The air intake on atmospheric is limited by the burner design, meaning for best performance, the forge is sized for the burner output, and intended use. Here at 5000' altitude, it's easy to get a welding atmos. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

The very best is to have more than one. Sorry for the ramble. Dan