(or your forge, which turns out can get copper vaper to build up, which can inhibit forge welding)
I have actually melted copper into a puddle inside my welding forge and was told this bit of "bro science" and was advised to reline my forge. Me, being the eternal skeptic that I am, doubted there was any truth to this. It makes very little sense that copper would do this especially when you see the prevalence of CuMai out there these days. People are forge welding copper in between steel plates all the time and it doesn't seem to cause any problems.
Needless to say, I never did any relining of that forge and it still works fine to this day. All I did was put some flux on a piece of cable, stuck the cable in the forge and lit it up. The copper melted and I rolled the cable in the puddle. No more copper in the forge.
“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”
That makes sense, given I had this happen when I tried to make some aluminum bronze well using some Borax as an oxygen barrier...Theory: it could be from a reaction to the Hydrogen component of Propane and borax. as i understand the practice as i have not done it: green plant matter (to get Hydrogen) is put in a crucible to help the vanadium permeate steel when you make homemade crucible damascus. So something this might be whats happening with the copper with the borax...but i am not a chemist and the only one i know passed back in 09 (my grandfather). sure i could go try to test it but I am not interested, and dont want to use up what little copper i have.
Theory: it could be from a reaction to the Hydrogen component of Propane and borax. as i understand the practice as i have not done it: green plant matter (to get Hydrogen) is put in a crucible to help the vanadium permeate steel when you make homemade crucible damascus. So something this might be whats happening with the copper with the borax..
Where do you get this information? Green plant matter in the crucible to donate hydrogen and help the vanadium permeate the steel? Who is telling you these things? What, if anything does this have to do with the copper causing a forge weld to fail?
“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”
All I did was put some flux on a piece of cable, stuck the cable in the forge and lit it up. The copper melted and I rolled the cable in the puddle. No more copper in the forge.
first I have a chaotic thought process and dont always explain myself or I may also over-explain things but it relates to what you stated. I am sorry I am also assuming you used borax as a flux, and I likely misunderstood what you were saying. so here is how it relates.
😥 I am likely overthinking things... however, I did share a picture. ...and will share it again on this post please look at it...how it relates to the subject as i had somehow managed to earlier this month Plate the steel melting dish I had made with an aluminum-copper alloy I had Been trying to make...in a forge that uses propane which is C3H8 meaning a large component is hydrogen...at temperatures that were capable of melting the metals... i was trying to use 20 mules borax soap as an oxygen barrier to help melt the aluminum and copper you stated you used a piece of cable with flux on it, i figure what helped clean out the forge was the borax possibly had some kind a reaction with the hydrogen being burned in as part of the propane or natural gas fuel most forges use as i dont think it would be a big issue with a charcoal or coal forge.
😥 The plant matter thing i learned initially in in my English translation of Ernst G. Siebeneicher-Hellwig & Jürgen Rosinski's Forging Damascus for Beginners. This video had a better description of what said plant matter did:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4&list=PL8HgcLNhRa61fNdlwo2RCaUsZpiaPQzFm&index=7&t=3s (if the link does not work The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel on Loades Of History ) Its video of Al Pendray making crucible damascus and Also interviewed Dr. Verhoeven.
sorry if i am over-explaining things again...but this is how it relates for me...
PS: That is the bottom of the dish i was using.
😥 I am likely overthinking things... however, I did share a picture. ...and will share it again on this post please look at it...how it relates to the subject as i had somehow managed to earlier this month Plate the steel melting dish I had made with an aluminum-copper alloy I had Been trying to make...in a forge that uses propane which is C3H8 meaning a large component is hydrogen...at temperatures that were capable of melting the metals... i was trying to use 20 mules borax soap as an oxygen barrier to help melt the aluminum and copper you stated you used a piece of cable with flux on it, i figure what helped clean out the forge was the borax possibly had some kind a reaction with the hydrogen being burned in as part of the propane or natural gas fuel most forges use as i dont think it would be a big issue with a charcoal or coal forge.
i am spyralling as i cant move on...this is something that happened to me a lot before i was stated as being disruptive in a bladesmithing facebook group and got kicked out of it...I am just trying to figure out how I plated this dish mild steel, trying to melt aluminum and copper to make some aluminum brass, and introducing borax into the mix as I could not even pour it. i broke this dish to get the bits of unmelting copper and aluminum i harvest from soda can and i fluxed with borax to try to keep the aluminum form oxidising and making dross. I know a little about a lot of stuff and connected dots normal people might not have form the knowledge i have to try to make sense of what happened.
first I have a chaotic thought process and don't always explain myself or I may also over-explain things
Thank you for saying that. It helps me understand you a little better, and allows me to modify how I respond to you.
There is a lot to unpack in your last three posts, so I will try and answer what appears to me to be the primary question of how you "plated the melting dish" and leave the question of crucible steel and green plant matter donating hydrogen for a later time. I will watch that video later today.
Before I attempt to answer the "why" of your situation, I need you to tell me the "what" of how you got there.
Even though I think I already know the answer, because modern material science has already answered this question, I still need you to tell me what you did in your experiment making aluminium bronze.
You also need to keep your answer very short and to the point. Do NOT try and tell me "why" you did what you did as that is not relevant. I just want to know the exact steps you took and what the variables are in play.
Tell me the following:
1. What was this melting dish made from and how was it assembled?
2. What materials went into the dish? Quantities are only moderatly imprtant, source of material is necessary.
3. What was the heating process? What temperature did you achieve, was there a hold time?
4. What did you notice visibly during the heat?
5. What was the cooling process?
Just answer those 5 questions. Do not add any hyothetical assumptions, theories, or conjecture.
“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”
Tell me the following:
1. What was this melting dish made from and how was it assembled?
2. What materials went into the dish? Quantities are only moderatly imprtant, source of material is necessary.
3. What was the heating process? What temperature did you achieve, was there a hold time?
4. What did you notice visibly during the heat?
5. What was the cooling process?
1: mild steel, rightly 1/2 inch deep, 2 inches wide, and 3 inches long with a little bit of old melted copper still affixed to it welded with blue demon Flux core wire 3 years ago. heat source a second generation Atlus mini forge. (the forge can get to 2500 F according to the specs on the website). (and I was wearing my respirator for the entire thing) and had successfully melted and poured copper in it in the past. no lid.
2:2 ounces Copper plate drawn down to roughly a tich less than three us dimes thick (i did not use dimes my calipers battery is dead) from Speedy Metals 2 ounces, both as Dust from filing, Strips from drilling, and chunks after cutting out a piece of jewelry + two 'soda' cans of aluminum I had ripped up, resulting in .9 ounces (I wrote it down so I could repeat it if I liked the color).
3. I put the copper in first and let that heat up to a bright red, then pulled the dish out and slowly added the aluminum and let it get up to temperature. I checked a few times with my Atlus mini running at full blast and using my laser pyrometer. I think it got to 2000 F, but the pyrometer is set for iron alloy. However, I did not notice puddling, so I added flux in the form of 20 mule borax, thinking I had a drass issue(I think that's the right word) as I had watched some videos on melting beforehand. I held for around 20-40 minutes.
4. I was getting some pools of liquid similar in appearance to a good welding pool, but it was not pouring after I had scrapped a bit of flux to open a pocket with a tool I made from a broken Keter bar clamp bar (so likely a cheap stainless alloy) the aluminum was clinging to the tool.
5: The cooling process was that I was trying to pour it into an open-face mold made from a mild steel plate, but it would not pour. I tried heating it again..., but it would not work... I let it cool a bit, then got frustrated and dunked it in water to try to salvage the material in it. Then, hit it with a hammer till it broke to try to get the cooled material out.
OK Kevin, this is what I think is happening.
First I want to look at the materials you are using. The copper from Speedy is pretty pure, at least according to the listed alloy they are selling. The aluminum you are using is not. Soda cans have a thin layer of mylar coating over the outside. This is what enables the printing of logos, text, etc. on the can. That mylar is getting into your melt and causing you problems.
You should either look for a better source of aluminum or melt your cans down first and remove the sludge that floats to the top before pouring it into a mold to create an aluminum bar. Use pieces of that bar in your bronze melt.
The second thing I want to mention is the lack of a release agent on the mild steel melting dish. This is causing the copper/aluminium to stick to the steel. You can paint the inside of your dish with yellow ocre, white acrylic primer, or White-Out but that also introduces another ingredient into the melt. This is why I use the stainless steel liner. The stainless steel, when properly oxidized will not stick to anything easily and its melting point is far above any non-ferrous metal you have in the dish. So it won't contaminate the melt.
The next thing I want to talk about is the heat/temperature at which you are working. Again, we need to define our terms. A "pyrometer" is a heat measuring device that uses infrared (IR) to determine the temperature of an object through reflected IR radiation. These are less accurate the further they are from the object. They are also not very accurate when looking through the atmosphere of a furnace or forge at an object sitting in the forge.
So the questions are, are you using one of those hand-held units, and did you remove the dish from the forge when you checked the temp? Another thing, a pyrometer doesn't really care what the obect it looks at is made of. So one of these is not "set for steel". It is either calibrated properly or it isn't.
A thermocouple, or temperature probe, is a device that is inserted into the forge/furnace and measures the ambient temperature of the forge body. These are much more accurate for the work we do, though they are not an exact measurement of the object in the forge's temperature.
So, I think you also have a temperature problem. You are getting hot enough to get almost to melting temp, but not quite there, or going back and forth across the line. This is the temperature when something called diffusion welding happens. Diffusion welding is what we do when we make Damascus billets and when we make Mokume Gane. The metals get hot enough to weld to the metal next to it. A diffusion weld bond is very strong when done correctly. This is why the melt stuck to the steel and you couldn't get it out of the dish.
“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”
I'm about halfway through that video you posted and I wanted to address the addition of green vegetable matter to get hydrogen into the crucible. At about 15 minutes in, Al talks about this process and what it suposedly does.
According to Al, the presence of hydrogen facillitates the carbon uptake into the raw iron by lowering the melting point of iron "a couple hundred degrees Celsius". I cannot speak to the truth of this, but it sounds a little fishy to me. In any case, Al added the green vegetable matter because "some ancient texts mentioned" doing it and he did it just because. It had nothing to do with enabling the Vanadium to enter the steel.
I could go on for quite a while about my own crucible steel making and why the presence of that vegetable matter is important, but that would be hijacking this thread, which was about casting non-ferrous metals. At some point I will start a subject about my crucible steel making and we can discuss it there.
“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”
Sorry, it took me 2 days to respond. It makes sense, but how did the melt coat the bottom so uniformly? As this is the underside of the dish, that's what is confusing me. As to the mylar, can I burn it off first, or is it easier to melt it and scrape it off do a melt first? would it be worth it to use a 400-grit belt on my sander to remove some of the mylar/paint before melting it?
A "pyrometer" is a heat measuring device that uses infrared (IR) to determine the temperature of an object through reflected IR radiation. These are less accurate the further they are from the object. They are also not very accurate when looking through the atmosphere of a furnace or forge at an object sitting in the forge.
Yes, I was pulling it out of the forge to check it. I don't really care what the temperature of my single burner forge is (as it has a hot spot off that forge of 5 inches, which is also where I had it); I care about the temperature of my steel. I looked up the manual for my tool (as I misplaced it). It's set for .79, and copper is .78, so it should read fine (My unit has a 16:1 Distance Spot Ratio, and having looked at it, if I understand what I just learned right at 16 inches, it reads 1 inch of material. I hold it about 30 inches from the steel, and I know it takes maybe 2 seconds to read the material fully) I also have a reader for a thermal couple, but I dont use them...because I am only getting a reading at one point in my forge if I drill a hole in it to place it.
According to Al, the presence of hydrogen facillitates the carbon uptake into the raw iron by lowering the melting point of iron "a couple hundred degrees Celsius"
It does to me, too. I would think it's more likely they used the plant matter to get the trance amounts of vanadium, as some plants, like parsley or spinach, have trance amounts of vanadium in them.
but how did the melt coat the bottom so uniformly? As this is the underside of the dish, that's what is confusing me. As to the mylar, can I burn it off first, or is it easier to melt it and scrape it off do a melt first? would it be worth it to use a 400-grit belt on my sander to remove some of the mylar/paint before melting it?
The liquid metal probably leaked out of the dish through weld voids. Without looking at the dish in my hand, it's difficult to say, but knowing that you were able to break it apart with a hammer, tells me the welds were not solid to begin with. Another reason I use the stainless steel foil is that it has no way for the liquid metal to escape. The corners are all folded over and creased tight. The steel dish is just a vehicle to hold the foil dish.
All I can say is you can try those methods of dealing with the soda cans. Burning it off risks oxidizing the metal, which may or may not be a problem in the melt.
The only way I have used empty cans for aluminum stock is to melt them in a graphite clay crucible in my crucible forge. The gunk floats to the top and we take it out with a metal spoon right after removing the crucible and right before the pour.
“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”
t's difficult to say, but knowing that you were able to break it apart with a hammer, tells me the welds were not solid to begin with.
You're right. I likely had a hole in it. I will do that then. I did dunk it in water, so the steel, despite being mild steel, was brittle. This was made from a steel tub. I did take a four-month course to learn to weld, so I do know how to weld, but I likely had a small hole in it. Here's a picture of the other side. I will do that then.
