Gentlemen:
For a couple years now I've been in search of achieving Ashi that extend down to the Ha from the hamon line. Don Hanson III was kind enough to share his heat treat recipe with me - I've always admired the amount of hamon activity he and now his son Kyle obtain in their work.
I don't have a Little Giant power hammer, and if I did, the neighbors would shoot me, so I haven't been able to pound down round bar to flat stock - I've been using Aldo's W-2 stock and going with stock removal. My heat treat regimen is rough grind - triple normalize in my Paragon @ 1450/1425/1400 - apply 1/16" to 1/8" Satanite - bring to 1450/5 minute soak - Parks 50 quench - double draw at 450. I'll hand polish to 2000 grit and triple etch in 3/1 Ferric Chloride, cleaning between each 10 second soak, then polish with Flitz.
Somewhere I've read that it's not possible to achieve Ashi in bar stock, but everything on the internet isn't true IMHO. I've had the same results with hollow grinds and flat grinds. I've tried wider and I've tried narrower applications of Satanite to no avail. I've tried a 1475 quench and a 1425 quench - no good there either. Here's an example of one of my recent hamons below......I consider this marginally acceptable.
My question to you more experienced bladesmiths is this: Have any of you been able to achieve more activity in Aldo's recent batch of W-2? If so, what do you recommend I change other than buying a $6,000 power hammer and using Don Hanson III W-2? If you can attach a photo, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks in advance,
TK
"Energy and persistence overcome all obstacles." Ben Franklin
T.K.,
I'm certainly no expert in a differential H/T but W2 is W2 and the difference is probably in the application of clay (satanite) and not who's steel you use.
What determines a hamon (or ashi)is the cooling rate (or differences in it). I'm guessing that you may be applying the clay too thick. This was my problem originally. You really don't need a vast difference in cooling rate to achieve what you're after. I would suggest applying the satanite thinner (with a wash coat on the rest)and see if this helps.
Maybe one of the M.S.'s will chime in here with other ideas.
Gary
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T.K.,
I'm certainly no expert in a differential H/T but W2 is W2 and the difference is probably in the application of clay (satanite) and not who's steel you use.
What determines a hamon (or ashi)is the cooling rate (or differences in it). I'm guessing that you may be applying the clay too thick. This was my problem originally. You really don't need a vast difference in cooling rate to achieve what you're after. I would suggest applying the satanite thinner and see if this helps.
Maybe one of the M.S.'s will chime in here with other ideas.
Gary
Gary: Thanks for the input - I have applied the Satanite as thin as 1/16" - is that still considered thick?
"Energy and persistence overcome all obstacles." Ben Franklin
T. K.,
How thick are you leaving the cutting edge before H/T?
Gary
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T. K.,
How thick are you leaving the cutting edge before H/T?
Gary
Gary: About .060"
"Energy and persistence overcome all obstacles." Ben Franklin
are you adding Ashi lines of thin clay off the main body of clay on the back of the blade?
|quoted:
are you adding Ashi lines of thin clay off the main body of clay on the back of the blade?
Yes - I'll apply the main body of clay to both sides then extend the ashi clay lines down.
Note: After receiving Gary's input, I went back into my shop and re-heat treated two blades. This time I really watered the clay down and applied it extremely thin, extending the Ashi lines down also. A quick 120 grit grind after quench revealed guess what? ASHI!!!! I must have been applying the clay too thickly - what I'm putting on is not more than a wash.
I think I'm on my way!!
"Energy and persistence overcome all obstacles." Ben Franklin
It's mostly a matter of time and temp, quench medium, heat source, steel thickness, etc..
Extraordinary results occur with no clay at all.
I know that I am far more likely to get active hamons using my forge than my oven.
Karl B. Andersen
Journeyman Smith
|quoted:
It's mostly a matter of time and temp, quench medium, heat source, steel thickness, etc..
Extraordinary results occur with no clay at all.
I know that I am far more likely to get active hamons using my forge than my oven.
OK Karl - I'll bite. I have a forge. How do you achieve extraordinary results with no clay and your forge?
"Energy and persistence overcome all obstacles." Ben Franklin
TK as Gary and Karl say, there are a lot of variables. The right steel, which you are using. Then clay thickness, I usually go 1/16 or thinner. For the ashi lines, even thinner. Then it is a matter of temp, for this steel 1475 seems to work well, with a three to five minute soak. This seems to work best for me and produces ashi and utsuri or ghost hamon above the main line. You will just have to do experimenting to get the results you want. Then of course you have the whole other step of polishing to bring the effects out. It is a never ending search for me. I am still experimenting and learning.
Brion
Brion Tomberlin
Anvil Top Custom Knives
ABS Mastersmith
TK, check the topic from november 2011. Tons of information about hamons.
I was wondering how to get those 2 different colors on the blade. Is it the steel that gives 2 colors or does it comes out by polishing just 1 side of the hamon?
I would also suggest that .060" is about double the thickness I would use if looking for active hamon.
You need the thinner areas to cool RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!! Instantly!!!
If you're .060" at the cutting edge, even on a narrow blade, you're going to have a lot of mass above that holding heat, which, just 'pushes' the martensite down toward the cutting edge and doing a lot to eliminate exactly what you're trying to achieve.
Try .030" next time and austenize just up to your clay using your forge.
Find out everything you can about what works and what doesn't work with your tools.
Doesn't hurt to keep notes on this, either.
I also use a probe in my forge to adjust my temp when hardening. It's impossible to know your forge's temp by eye. And 20-30 degrees either way, 010-015" thickness differential from blade to blade, 20 degrees change in quench oil, etc., really does make a difference.
Experience comes into play after about 10 years and you sort of get the idea that you kind of might be onto something.
Maybe. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//blink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />
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Gary: About .060"
Karl B. Andersen
Journeyman Smith
Karl and Brion:
Today was experimenting day - I ground a blade down to .030" and took it up to about 1475 up to the clay using the forge (and my eye for color) - I had usually worked at 1450 using Aldo's earlier W-2 batch. Now, I have to admit that I usually work with hollow grinds which I think makes it tougher to control cooling rates. I got some pretty good results with an interrupted quench. One second in - one out - then back in. So many variables to consider that it boggles the mind. Hope I live long enough to master the hamon and ashi!! <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />
What is killing me is that the process I used before on Aldo's earlier batch of W-2 gave wonderful results but they suck for this batch. Tomorrow is another experiment day. Thanks for your input gentlemen.
"Energy and persistence overcome all obstacles." Ben Franklin
Yep TK, each run of steel may be slightly different, one of those things we have to deal with. If I am using stock from a new batch I will do some test blades to make sure I have things dead on with the heat treat. Those little variables in carbon content and alloy content can make a difference. I have been doing hamons long enough to know that there is a lot I do not know yet.
Christophe, the difference in color as you call it is mainly due to polishing. The softer area in the blade will polish or abrade differently than the hardened section. When the blade is etched the hardened area will appear black with a grey in the softer area. This is an oxide layer that I will take off then begin the real polishing work.
Brion
Brion Tomberlin
Anvil Top Custom Knives
ABS Mastersmith
TK,
When you do another blade try doing a 3 second quench in the Park's then out for three and back in for 8-10 seconds.
Gary
