Very interesting conversations going on...

The best news I've heard here is about the oil. My dad HATES me using motor oil....it stinks, smells, creates thick and gunky, dirty smoke, etc... He is going to be overjoyed when I tell him that Im about to use Peanut oil.

It was mentioned though that Peanut oil has a fast cooling rate, if I read correctly? Does that mean that it has a higher tendency to warp?

Joseph, canola has the faster cooling curve and thus it would be better for the 10XX than peanut oil which sill work better with something like 5160, and will have a higher flash point. Neither should be able to provide enough stress to give you any of the problems of a water based quenchant. Also remember that distortion is actually caused by uneven cooling much more than the speed of cooling.

Joseph,

We learned in Intro Class that blades can warp no matter what type of quenchent is used. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//angry.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':angry:' /> That is why it is important to follow the proper forging, normalization, and heat treating process for the steel being used.

If you can't get the blade straight right after the heat treat, make a jig to straighten them during the oven temper. Here is a picture of Master Smith, Timothy Potier, clamping a blade in a jig. A piece of channel iron with cap, hex head, screws taped in about an inch apart on both sides. Secure the blade, and then bend the blade a little past straight, temper, cool and check.

Place small peices of metal between the blade and screws to prevent scratching the blade. Repeat during the next cycle if necessary. I've used mine several times with great results! <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

Joseph,

I use canola oil on my 10XX steels and it works very well...it is also inexpensive. I would recommend it over motor oil any day.

Robert,

Thanks for showing the pic of that jig! That's great and easy to fabricate. I'll have to try it <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//rolleyes.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />

Ed C.

Awesome...sounds good. I'll be heading to Walmart and getting a few gallons of the Peanut oil for 5160 as recommended.

Thanks for all!

For preventing blade warp in quenching it seems that the most important factor is being able to plunge the blade dead vertical into the quenchant and not waving it around while it's in there. I always drill a small hole in the end of the tang and use a piece of rebar tie wire to pull the blade from the oven and let it hang straight down before I lower it into the quench. I use the wire for two reasons: I don't want to pull any heat from the blade with tongs, and I want to hang that blade straight down when it goes into the oil. Not likely if you are using tongs to hold that blade.

I also have a vise set up with two copper jaws. The jaws are 1" x 3/8" x 12". The vise is turned vertical so I can pull the blade from the quench after about 10-15 seconds and transfer it to the vise with the spine and ricasso firmly in the jaws. I let the copper bars finish the quench (they do get pretty dang hot). I have had very little trouble with blade warp since I started using this technique on 5160, O-1, 154CM and 440C. Those are the primary steels I work with.

Teddy asked a bunch of questions that I think got overlooked along the way. So, I'm going to do my best to try and answer them

1. In normalizing, can I program a routine that will allow me to take it up to 1600, stop and let it cool for 2 hrs, then take it back to 1500 and let it cool for 2 hours, and then take it up to 1200 and stop, letting the blade cool in the oven?

A: That depends on the oven and whether it's programming capability allows that. I would think that you should be able to set up something that heats to whatever you choose (1600 is too high for normalizing 1084)then cools down to another temperature (let's say 200 degrees)and ramps up again, cools down, etc. I think you said you used 1084. That would probably need 3 heats to about 1200-1250 (?) and cooling to around 200 or less between heats. (If anyone thinks I have that all wrong, please jump in)

2. What program should I set up for hardening, the ramp and holding time till I quench?

A: That depends on the steel, but I use anywhere from 1480 -1550 depending on what steel I am using, Ramp up to temp in about an hour, hold for 20-40 minutes to let me get my quench up to temp and then shut down.

3. Can I set up a program to temper the blades and, if so, what should it be?

A: Again that depends on the programming ability of the oven, it also depends on the steel, and the desired hardness you want to achieve. Check the Heat Treating forum for more information on specifics for different steels and RC hardness. I think I posted a link to a pretty good paper with charts and stuff for a variety of steels in the "soft backed hunter" thread.

4. Is it easier to use a torch and watch for color as I will only be doing 2-3 blades at a time?

A: "Easier" Probably yes. "Better", probably not. Even if I am only heat treating a single blade, it goes in the oven. If anyone owns a decent oven with good temp controls, there is no reason to temper your blades with a torch.

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In 2001, I was able to get a rather large volume of 1" square 5160 that was all from one melt, made in 1984.

Having such a large amount, I worked with it almost exclusively for about 2 years.

During this time I was able to get 10 gallons of Texaco A. I just opened my second five gallon this past week.

It's a very slow oil and works amazingly well for the deep hardening steels.

A couple makers we know take advantage of its properties when heat treating the deep hardening chromium steels like 5160 and 52100.

Alas, Texaco quit making it right about the time I acquired mine.

Which reminds me - one quenchant not mentioned for 5160 is vet grade mineral oil. Heated up a bit, I used it with excellent results on my 5160 until I was able to get the Texaco A.

The vet grade mineral oil, which is available at nearly any farm-type-store, eliminates LOTS of vegetable oil variables, and is available to us all.

Making sure it's "vet grade" is one way of determining purity and regularity.

Come to think of it, I just made two 5160 knives recently from my batch of old-stock steel.

I learned a couple things about 5160 early on:

1. Kevin is correct - not surprisingly.

2. The marginal carbon content, and the resultant chromium carbides that come during heat treating this steel, really require a good soak for the most benefit from 5160. That carbon really needs to get evenly distributed. With my stuff, I have come to enjoy a 10 minute soak - AT TEMP! - at 1515 in a pre-heated oven. (I have had limited success and disappointing results from trying to austenize 5160 in a forge.)

3. Get some Texaco A - or its equivalent.

Now, I've found Tex A to be the most beneficial of the oils I've used for my 5160. But it's no longer made - right?

Right.

However, there is a company in Perry, Ohio, called Great Lakes Oil Company that makes a Texaco A alternative they call "Quench A". And it's available in 5 gallon buckets.

I have not tried it. But I can tell you that I called a year or so ago and the price seemed very affordable. I've considered getting a few pails just to have in back-up in case one day they, too, stop making it.

Who knows.

Here's the description from their site: " GLOC QUENCH A is formulated from high quality paraffin base stocks which will resist oxidation. GLOC QUENCH A is oxidation inhibited to provide long bath life in conventional operations. The outstanding physical characteristics of this product coupled with the cost performance function ratio justify looking at replacing present quenching oil. GLOC QUENCH A is recommended for conventional quenching of ferrous metals at bath temperatures up to 150*F."

http://www.greatlake...05#Quench%20Oil

Hi Karl, realize this is late in coming, but I have been using the Gloc Quench for almost three years and can say first hand that it is top notch, only replenished it once in that time, and it is super consistent and well worth the cost. Wes