Brion, I think this is a great topic! I can't wait to see what kind of discussion comes from it.

Handle construction, to me, as been a conundrum of sorts in the past. Using the ratios and what "looks" right to the eye might not always work. Sometimes I think it's a subjective measurement. For example: I like the knives that I keep to have a thinner handle. I don't have particularly small hands, but I like the way a thinner handle feels. I have a gentleman that I've made several knives for and he likes a wider, beefier handle. In all reality, both of these extremes don't really "look right". I tend to split that difference when I make knives in general. I

This is one reason why I love bladesmithing, there are so many different variables that can be applied depending on end use of the knife, personal preference, materials used..etc...

Good one, Brion.

I'll jump in later.

An interesting topic for sure, Brion. It seems that the smaller knives are the hardest to get the proportions right. Throw into the mix that most people's hands require a 4.5 -5.25 inch handle and it can be complicated. IMO, ricasso height plays a part in proportions as well. Your also gonna mix a lot of personal taste in as well.

If you're going on a road trip somewhere, we almost always know WHERE we're going and HOW we're going to get there, whether it be a map or coordinates in a GPS or something.

But we have our route planned.

When I make a knife, I know within incredibly tight tolerances what it's going to be before I light the forge.

When the blade is done, I use manila folders and draw out the knife how I want it to be.

I need to have this mental image - at all times - where I'm going.

If you don't know WHERE you're going - how are you going to get there?

Drawing out the knife lets me determine visual 'balance' and proportion right from the get-go.

When I have the knife looking the way I want it, I cut out the handle profile and transfer it to the handle block and cut it out. I cut out my 2-dimensional handle profile BEFORE I ever drill a hole in it. I have always found attaching a block of rectangular material to a tang just backwards and asking for trouble. If I cut it out before-hand, a large portion of the handle shaping is already done.

Anyway, when that handle profile is traced - I save it.

I then have a "library" of handle profiles to choose from for the next knife(ves).

As well, a customer may request a similar handle as one seen at a previous knife show or on my web site, so I even go as far as label the profile for future reference.

By drawing out the knife I'm able to "see" the image in my mind while building the knife and I'm able to pre-determine proportions, visual balance, etc.

This has worked exceptionally well for me for quite some time.

I am very interested in this. All this information would be helpful as I am trying to make knives to submit for Journeyman. Are there exact rules on thickness on handles as was mentioned by Chad Hollar? I have been making handles that I think look good and feel good in my hand. My brother Harry and I argue on the length of a hunter guard. I want a fairly short guard and he says the guard needs to be long because it was put there to keep your hand off the blade. Of course you know how brothers argue. Karl, I do save a pattern of all my handles. That is very good information. From the input by others I will learn if the handle patterns I saved are worth the paper they are on.

I believe this information would be a treasure to all apprentice smiths.

|quoted:

An interesting topic for sure, Brion. It seems that the smaller knives are the hardest to get the proportions right. Throw into the mix that most people's hands require a 4.5 -5.25 inch handle and it can be complicated. IMO, ricasso height plays a part in proportions as well. Your also gonna mix a lot of personal taste in as well.

Ben (and Karl, and Brion, and everyone else...), I am interested - what is an average ricasso height for you on the knives you make most often? Do you base it on the blade length, or just a standard like, 'I like a 1" high ricasso?"

Is it a range, since it generally decides the height of the handle at the guard? If so, what is that range for you all?

Thanks,

Jim

This is an AWESOME TOPIC!!!!! This is what I struggle with the must when trying to draw up a knife on paper. Like if its a small hunter how big

should the ricasso be and if it has a common hunter type single branch guard (if thats what you call it lol) how far should the lug exceed past the

cutting edge and how thick should the lug be compared to the total thickness of the guard material that you are using. Also how much width should it

be on the side of the ricasso, I know it should be the same thickness on both sides of the ricasso and also the handle material can play a part in how thick it should be from

left to right side of the ricasso, like if your using some stag or something similar. So exclude that scenario. Say you were going to use a block of

wood that is what ever size you want it to be, what would your ideal thickness be? I know all of this has to do with personal taste. But personal

taste doesn't matter to me, passing the JS presentation part of the test matters to me.... So all I'm saying what are some ratios that keep it safe

for the JS presentation part of the test? I'm pretty sure that if 1 of my 5 knives have a 2inch thick guard with a 1inch thick lug and a 3inch

thick handle I would fail. At least I would hope I would fail because that would be 1 ugly knife lol <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//blink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> I plan on taking the intro class and

going to some hammer-ins ASAP So maybe I can get a better grasp on these things that keep me up at night <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//blink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> I wish I was joking ever since I

made my first knife and then found out about the ABS and seen all the gorgeous knives from all the JS and MS its all I can think about.

Anyway thanks for listening to me ramble on...... Or should I say type on <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

OH yeah. Karl I just saw the videos on that new forge you built on your youtube channel. That forge is pretty awesome

Well, that was a lot of questions.

I can offer this - I keep my ricasso height near an inch. Almost never less.

On hunters I will stick right at an inch, as the knife grows the ricasso might, as well, but seldom more than about .020".

Hunter guards and small fighter-type knives have the guard at about 13/16-7/8" wide.

There are so many variables it's hard to create a set of "rules".

Seriously - as I sit here thinking about the next sentence to type, I just don't even know where to start.

One of the things I did as the internet grew was to look at knife pictures. When I found myself liking a knife that I saw I tried to figure out WHAT it was that I liked. Most often it was proportion and flow. The proportions of the components should compliment each other.

Keep it simple. Use common sense.

This could get complicated real quick. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

I'll just say that I do try to follow some general rules of proportion of course, but there must be some flexibility or every hunting knife would look the same and every Bowie....and so on. Much the same, the human face and form, while varying, can still follow general rules of proportion and fit within a standard of beauty for humans. This variety allows us the pleasure of individual taste, in humans as well as in knives, as to what looks good to us.

This correlation is probably closer than we might think. What looks good to us most often just fits us as an individual. At least fits our individual taste but quite likely even fits our hand. I think this is an inborn attraction that is related to our body type and refined by experience.

I believe rules of knife making are like laws. There should be very few. Following the spirit of the rules allows for taste and creativity while staying within a framework of safe and beautiful conditions.

A new maker should do as Karl advised, study photos of knives and break it down and decide what it is about a knife that you like or don't like. Study is hard for some. Meditating on such things might be painful to some folks but its a necessary stage in developing a good eye. The mundane, boring aspects of any subject are often the most important. They are the basics. The foundation. But these things are often given the least attention. A new maker really should apply him/herself to the basics of proportion with the view to becoming a better knife maker rather than the view to passing a test. That will take time and making several knives.

Karl and Lin - thank you so much for replying - it is really helpful.

I found that for myself, I have had trouble finding pics of a knife from side, and top, and bottom (or the end - who knew Randall knives had that ugly nut showing on the butt-cap!).

That made it difficult for me to figure out proportions from internet pics only.

There are not often good knife shows near me, so I had to wait for ICCE (the only big show I can get to) and go look at a lot of the knives in person to research that kind of thing.

When I was starting, I was hungry for someone to say, 'and I generall start with 3/16" x 1 1/4" bar stock for a hunter, or 1/4" x 1 1/2" for a chopper - expecting a ricasso that is about 1" tall," etc.

I can go to Cabelas and hold and measure Buck knives, etc - but the really nice skillfully made stuff has much better sizes and proportions.

Karl's answer that 1" is near his standard ricasso is great information. I really appreciate the specific answer.

I realize we all have to sketch a ton of knives, make a ton of knives, etc - but I would like to see more ABS instructions like:

'Often, 1" ricasso, 4.5" handle, and a guard thickness of 13/16" will be a good starting point," or something like that.

This forum post is why I joined the ABS - thanks for all you guys help!

If I was a cook, I would be the one who don't measure ingredients. Just a dash or a handful. I measure sometimes, in the context of parallel or square but not so much the ricasso size or much else. If someone asks, I usually have to find a ruler and measure.

In general, my hunter ricassos are 11/16 high X 1/2 inch wide. My Bowie ricassos are 1-3/16 high x 3/4 wide.

My hunter handles are 4-3/4 from front of the guard. My Bowie Handles are 5 to 5-1/2.

My hunter guards (top view) are 9/16 to 5/8. My Bowie guards are 7/8 to 1-1/8.

Choosing a particular ricasso height sometimes has to do with the handle material I am called upon to use. The front of a piece of stag (taper) is unique and this may mean that I make the ricasso according to the stag instead of the other way around. The variables can be endless and that's why principles are more applicable than hard rules. If the stag does not fit within my idea of size proportion, I just wont use it.

Lots of good info here and many different ways to design and conceptualize the profiles and forms!

Who would have though you could ask a room full of knife makers a simple question and get so many different answers? <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//laugh.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

I, like Karl, keep a small library of handle shapes and templates. Ones that I particularly like and wish to reproduce.

I keep templates of blade shapes and sizes as well. I find this is extremely helpful at the anvil as I can keep the template with me at the anvil and compare the forged blade to the template. (my templates are all made of 1/8" flat stock)

I also draw the entire knife out on a piece of paper (usually 11x17) and will "tweak" the drawing until I have something that I really like.

I find it is best to lay the drawing on the floor and look at it from the perspective of distance, walking around the drawing to get different views. (Hancock taught me that one)

Once the drawing profile is complete, I will finish the design and make notes of all the additional design info: Handle material, spacer/guard material, pin placement, etc. until I have a complete "road map" as Karl so eloquently called it.

As for ricasso dimensions, I typically will match the height to the height of the handle so that the ricasso/handle aligns through the guard. Typically, this is between 3/4" and 1", maybe as much as 1-1/8" for blades that are about 1-1/2" wide maximum. Larger blades start to skew the proportions a lot.

This is that personal taste variable that Lin mentioned. I do not like seeing a difference in dimensions across the guard, unless it is a really large blade and the design specifically calls for it. I do not think a gross difference between ricasso height and handle height is appropriate, nor do I think it is aesthetically pleasing, on most hunters, EDCs or standard Bowies (7 or 8 inch blade length). Just my personal taste. (I do recognize that some designs do this intentionally)

The ricasso width, (guard to choil distance) I usually match to my spacer width. (I rarely, if ever do not have a spacer behind the guard) Visually, I think this provides a balance with the guard designating the "center" of the three elements. It's a Greek thing I learned from architecture. This usually falls around 5/8 - 1 inch width depending on the size of the blade.

Handle length is determined by making it measure 4-3/4 to 5 inches from where the index finger rests against the guard to where the pinkie rests against the heel or bird's head. Again, for most typical Hunters, EDC or Bowie styles. Other styles like a dagger or Seax might have a slightly longer handle to help with balance and handling.

Thank you for the guide line's Karl, Joshua, and Lin. I know its a very complicated subject do to there are no rules set in stone about this subject and its all about what looks good to your eye. I do look around the internet at a ton of pictures of blades. I know 1 thing I like is when I see a Cowboy Bowie with and oval guard and the spacers behind it, whether it be 1 or 3. I like when the spacer package equals the length the ricasso is(if that makes sense).

Anyway thanks again. Highly appreciated

|quoted:

I realize we all have to sketch a ton of knives, make a ton of knives, etc - but I would like to see more ABS instructions like:

'Often, 1" ricasso, 4.5" handle, and a guard thickness of 13/16" will be a good starting point," or something like that.

There are just far too many knife styles and sizes to make a statement like that - which is why you've never seen it.

Follow a recipe like that on the wrong knife and it becomes a foolish statement.

None of this stuff is just handed to us. There were all sorts of JS/MS certifications earned by people before the internet and zillions of pictures to be viewed.

I have been trying to create my own personal library of JS/MS photos for a very long time. I do wish we could create a reference of past JS/MS sets as people get certified. It would be a great reference for future applicants.