I didn't get to forge yesterday but, I did today. This is my 6th forged blade so...

I think I followed Lin's advice here. I'm going to head back out to the shop to grind it in a few minutes. Any comments or advice are welcome.

Bob

Untitled by Bob, on Flickr

Untitled by Bob, on Flickr

Untitled by Bob, on Flickr

Untitled by Bob, on Flickr

This is rough ground with a 60grit belt. It is pretty even at this point. I know it looks like my plunge breaks the spine but, it just kisses it where the distal taper starts. I'm expecting I will be able to create a smooth transition when I push the plunge back in the finish grind.

Bob

Untitled by Bob, on Flickr

Good job Bob. Yes, that's it exactly. When you move the plunges back a little in the finish, then you will bring the choil forward and the ricasso bottom up. You got it. You will notice that when you further remove some material off the ricasso sides, the plunges will move forward/down a bit so several things are at play during the final grind that bring it all into focus.

This is a fantastic thread. Between getting the info earlier on getting my edge in the middle and this for my plunges and ricasso doing good, life should be a lot better at the anvil <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />. Thanks for the great advice, Lin and Bob for asking.

Jeremy

For me, some of it will depend on mono-steel or Damascus and what may or may not disturb the pattern. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Often one shoe does not fit all.

Gary

This is true Gary. But my above explanation is directed toward someone who needs help with basic forging and most likely will be using a mono steel for his blade. However, I use this sometimes when the Damascus is a ladder pattern. It has little to no affect on that pattern. I want to make it clear that this is just an option that I offer. Not to take away the basic forging steps presented by the ABS sanctioned schools. Some guys don't drop their choils at all so this would not interest them so I am aware that there is more ways to skin a cat, just offering this to help answer a specific question.

I want to help clarify the often misunderstood area of a forged (ABS style)blade. There is an interplay of geometries where the ricasso flats meet the plunge choil area. The sequence of steps, when exaggerated in the way I have described, will help get this relationship in mind. As it comes into focus in ones mind, the tolerances can be tightened and the results can be more predictable.

Again, thank all of you, this is very helpful to a newbee like me. Bob please keep the pictures coming as you progress with this knife.

|quoted:

This is true Gary. But my above explanation is directed toward someone who needs help with basic forging and most likely will be using a mono steel for his blade. However, I use this sometimes when the Damascus is a ladder pattern. It has little to no affect on that pattern. I want to make it clear that this is just an option that I offer. Not to take away the basic forging steps presented by the ABS sanctioned schools. Some guys don't drop their choils at all so this would not interest them so I am aware that there is more ways to skin a cat, just offering this to help answer a specific question.

I want to help clarify the often misunderstood area of a forged (ABS style)blade. There is an interplay of geometries where the ricasso flats meet the plunge choil area. The sequence of steps, when exaggerated in the way I have described, will help get this relationship in mind. As it comes into focus in ones mind, the tolerances can be tightened and the results can be more predictable.

Lin, your answers are very helpful, so much so that they keep bringing up new questions. Is there a ABS preference for where the plunge falls in relation to the vertical drop of the choil? I personally am not a fan of having the plunge just in front of the drop because it leaves the little triangular walls at the plunge/choil. I know on your take down camp knife my wife bought at Blade this year, you have a sweeping plunge that terminates right in the corner of the ricasso and the choil. I've seen others push back into the ricasso by as much as 1/8". What should I be shooting for or is it more about style and personal preference? Thanks for all the help!

Bob

Great thread and great posts, Lin's especially.

Bob, I don't think there really is a 'right' or 'wrong' as to where the plunge is but I agree with you personally. I don't like the little triangle corner of steel when the plunge is ahead of the dropped heel. I also don't like it when the plunge is very far behind the drop.

Personally, I like to have the plunges come together right in the corner of the ricasso edge and the start of the dropped heel.

When it comes to taste, I am of the same mind as John. I like the choil to meet up right at the ricasso/plunge junction. It can curve from there to suit my taste for that knife.

So, personal preference does play a part, whether it is our preference or someone else's preference. Whether it is for us or a custom order. The point being, Can we forge the blade to accommodate the subsequent steps required to end up with the desired knife?

I'm afraid that some, not all, makers forge and "just let it happen". Then grind and "let it happen", then construct the handle/guard and "let it happen". The knife might end up fine, but it might not be anything like you had in your mind. If this is your approach and you like it, that is great. I myself will experiment with shapes and designs not knowing exactly how it will work. But I know up front it is a risk. For the most part though, I want to draw the knife I want to make and then to make that knife.

I believe the reason Bob asked the original question was to see if he could make the blade he had in his vision. Some have forge a lot and have experience moving the material and have no problem forging each part to shape. But some don't yet.

I could not agree more with Lin about the concept of planning your work and then executing it, shifting to this approach years ago changed my work profoundly, and my blades went from a series of fortunate accidents to master quality work every time. I believe it is a matter of control, a skilled craftsman is in control of his medium, and I can instantly spot work where the medium was in control instead. It may be fun and interesting to just hand the wheel over to the medium occasionally for artistic whimsy but a master craftsman knows who is in total control whenever he wishes.

Here is what I see with the plunge to choil heal question:

#1 may not get you bit in the judging room but I am not impressed, aesthetically it is not quite there for me and does not say “control” to my eyes. #2 is unacceptable to me and in the judging room I will get you for it, we have all been there and done that and know what is going on there, at Journeyman level I think a maker should know better. #3 is it for me! This speaks “control” to me. It is not that easy to bring all those lines together at one clean point but that is why you get a certification from the ABS- you have the knowledge and skill, but mostly the patience, to do it.

Thank you Kevin and everyone else that contributed to this thread, this all helps me tremendously.

I am a research and planning kinda guy. I've not made a single knife I didn't already have a significant amount of time in the drawing first. I may still look back some day and say "What was I thinking?" but, at least I started with a plan and tried to execute it. That is why the title of this thread is what it is; I want to know what considerations need to be taken into account to plan for and execute my vision. Lots of great info has been contributed to this thread and I truly appreciate the time each of you have given.

Really cool pictures there Kevin, did you pull those from somewhere or did you generate them for that post?

Bob

Hi Lin and Karl,

I've tried both methods but find when pushing the ricasso up I create a thicker section on the bottom by doing so. Creating a trapezoidal cross section on the ricasso that then has to be adjusted with a flatter. Generally, I like to stay away from the ricasso area avoiding the hammer marks that Lin mentioned earlier. The leaning forward method works well for me unless I'm setting the plunges with the power hammer, which is a whole other topic.

Barney

Thanks guys.

Kevin, the pictures are worth so much to help bring the issue into focus. A knife that has good design, fit, and finish was not made by accident. Thank you.

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...Really cool pictures there Kevin, did you pull those from somewhere or did you generate them for that post?

Bob

I am somewhat of a caveman Rembrandt with Photoshop and make many of my own graphics so that I can avoid stepping on anybody else's creative toes, as well as spot my own work when it is "borrowed". I have done enough teaching and talks over the years that I have hard drives full of images that I can do some quick adjustments to when a topic like this comes up. I know I try some folks patience with my penchant for Powerpoint as much as the forge, but because I carry countless lectures on flash-drives at all times I am able to cover any bladesmithing topic folks may want to see at a moments notice.