Bob,

This is something I can try to help you with.

There are several things that meet up right in that small area of the blade and any one of them will influence the way it will end up looking.

No 1: Stock Size

A lot of us were taught, early on, when choosing our stock size, to get something close to the final ricasso dimensions. Some of us took that so literally that is limits us in the choil drop. I like my Bowie ricasso to be about 1-1/8 to 1-1/4 depending the look I want. If I picked 1-1/4 stock or even 1-1/2 stock, it might be tough to pull down the choil, especially if it's thickness is marginal as well.

So, choose stock size that is wide and/or thick enough to give you the material to pull down without getting paper thin edges as you mentioned above.

How many times have you been grinding the blade and there's a hammer mark on the choil that you cant get out, so it forces you to grind forward, negating all your otherwise decent forging.

Start with big enough stock.

No 2: Forging Technique

Try this and see if it helps. ( I know it will <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> )

When you are about to forge the choil down, you approach the anvil,.....OK, lets pause.

Typically we are taught to lay the blade bar 90 degrees to the anvil's edge getting, more or less, square plunge, right? Don't do that. Instead, cant it on a 45 degree ( or so )angle to get a plunge that leans FORWARD on that angle. In that angle, you draw in your plunges and pull down the choil. Remember, you are now using a bar that is plenty wide and/or thick compared to what you were using formerly when having trouble. Trust me. Now, go ahead and forge the bevels and the tang out as normal. Note: The tang will need to be up slightly out of center of the ricasso with this procedure.

No 3: Grinding Technique

We are taught to profile the blade first. Yes, do that, but don't touch the choil or ricasso bottom. If there is a hammer mark, you need to smooth it enough to prevent cracking in the quench, but leave material in place for the most part. If you have to have something for your eye to go to, draw in the ricasso bottom and the planned choil shape with a sharpie. But don't grind it. Grind you blade sides, creeping up on the plunges to your desired look except..... keep it forward by a slight margin. Trust me. Get them even and looking good, only slightly forward of where you used to put them. (maybe 1/4 inch)

Heat treat.

In your finish grind, again keeping the plunges looking good and even, creep them back a tiny bit while still remaining forward of where you used to put them. Get your blade sides and the majority of the profile (except the choil and ricasso bottom) machine finished to the point of being ready to hand sand.

Now, it's time to bring the ricasso up and the choil forward to meet the plunges. UP and FORWARD.

Summary: Whereas we formerly were struggling to bring the choil DOWN and BACK, we now are allowing material in those places to eventually grind UP and FORWARD to meet the plunges. It will take patience and you'll have to resist the urge to grind that area when profiling.

These 3 things will make it possible where it might not be otherwise. It is very hard to describe in words to be understandable. A drawing or an actual forging demo would be better. I intend to follow at my first opportunity to forge a blade and show the above steps and the affects they have on the final blade.

was wondering if i can find some info about this topic on the forum and here it is <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

thanks for the explanation, a bit different from what i was doing but worth a try or more <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Thank you Lin! I have to admit I was a little lost along the way while reading your explanation; then in the end you pulled it all together and the light bulb lit up in my head. Makes total sense to me. Can't wait till Friday!

Bob

This topic would make a really useful and popular video for the ABS YouTube Channel.

Great question and reply Lin, Thank you I just printed it out and will file it for next week's knife.

I'll try a few pictures for now.

First, here is a shot of the forged blade with some marks on it.

In the above picture, I have the ricasso bottom and the plunge drawn where I intend for them to end up. But see that there is some material on bottom as well as behind the choil/plunge that is extra. This will be removed at the very last, after heat treat and the plunges are tuned in with a machine.

Here is a quick view of two positions of the blade on the anvil to slant the plunge.

The next shot is of the forged blade. The ricasso is extra wide with me planning to remove some off the bottom. That means I have to raise the tang above center by a slight margin.

Back to the plan. In this picture, I am pointing to the area where most guys grind the plunge.

This is where I recommend grinding the plunge.

This method is a little more forgiving if you don't nail the plunges right away. Bear in mind that you can grind the plunges slanted or straight according to your taste. You are only forging them slanted to accommodate the purpose of leaving some material where you need it. Look again at this picture. Look at the ridge where the ricasso and the plunge travels on the forward slant. Start at the bottom and see the upward and the forward direction it ( the ridge ) takes. The pointer is directly on it.

When you are grinding, often there will be a tiny hammer mark on the choil or the bottom junction of the ricasso and the plunge. At least, I sometimes have that happen. This method will greatly reduce that from happening.

Lin, thank you for the explanation and pictures. This explains it to me.

Chris

Bob thanks for starting this thread. Lin as a beginning forger this is really helpful thank you for taking the time to explain this. Gilbert

Thanks guys.

One thing. I realize that some folks are really good at moving steel and don't need this method. That's great. But some cant forge well yet and get frustrated. This is to give another way to achieve a dropped choil. Plus, I think it's good to learn to view things from another angle.

Thank you Lin! I think it is very helpful for everyone to learn new techniques.

I work from the other direction to acquire the same thing.

I simply start with wider material and push the bottom of the ricasso up.

Yes Karl. I do as well. I think by describing it from both directions, we can better understand the process.

We've got it surrounded.

There may come certain situations, materials, designs, etc. where a little bit of each process/direction might be used.

Each knife is unique and may have its own demands.

|quoted:

Yes Karl. I do as well. I think by describing it from both directions, we can better understand the process.

For me, some of it will depend on mono-steel or Damascus and what may or may not disturb the pattern. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Often one shoe does not fit all.

Gary