Tony:

The rules for the Master Smith Quillon Dagger do not specify the size of the twisted wire for the dagger handle. I have the current rules posted on the ABS Website under "Master Smith Testing".

The part of the Master Smith rules which were last updated by Chairman Greg Neely that address this area state as follows:

"The handle must be inlaid with a twisted wire wrap, set to a depth of one half its (the twisted wire's) diameter. The handle must also be fluted for most of its length between the strands of twisted wire. The strands of twisted wire must show the same degree of twist for all. Flutes should be crisp, distinct, and well-finished. The spacing and depth for wires and flutes must also be even and uniform.

Most people spiral the flutes and wire around the handle. This was commonly done in the "old days" and it helped with the grip and it also helped hold the wire in place tightly. The wire is not to be glued to the handle and must stay firmly in place, though the hidden ends of the wire can certainly be anchored in any appropriate manner. Although the wires will necessarily terminate beneath the metal furniture at either end of the handle, be sure the flutes stop short of the ends, and do not leave a sharp metal overhang where the flutes meet the guard, pommel, or spacers.

The rules currently do not specify that the wire and flutes must be spiraled around the handle and we do see some with the wire/flutes running parallel with the handle. If you do opt for the straight design for your wire and flutes, it will help if the handle has some swell in the center and tapers to the ends. Wire is difficult to keep in place, otherwise, and the use of something shaped like a mop handle won't meet with much approval. With either method, I recommend a minimum of four strands of twisted wire, with appropriate flutes between."

In addition, some time ago I asked Master Smith Kevin Cashen what size wire he used on his daggers and he said that he had a range of silver wire in his shop from 22 to 28 guage and found the finer wire to be more elegant but also more difficult to set. Also keep in mind that the wire will be about double its diameter when it is twisted and can work harden.

After also consulting several other Master Smiths (Mike Williams and Brion Tomberlin), the consensus was to order 24 guage (.024) pure .999 silver "dead soft" wire from Rio Grande.

I hope that this helps.

I think I used .020 X 2 twisted. You can use whatever size you want. Of course, you are the designer of your dagger, it being your masterpiece. And you're making the dagger to pass the test so, every detail is important. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Tony I used 24ga. wire from Riogrande jewelry supply. This is .020" thick and when twisted is approximately .038". I use the dead soft wire in .999 fine silver or argentium. It will work harden somewhat when you twist it. The trick is slow and easy. I use a cordless drill with an eye fixture and go slow for twisting.

Good luck.

Brion

Hey Tony;

The guys have given you the pretty full picture. Something to think about though is this. Silver is high right now. There is probably an electric motor rewind shop somewhere close to you. Go in there and ask one of the guys for some lengths of various sizes, 22,24,26,28. The rewind guy will give you a more than you can use for a box of donuts. Wire sizes are the same; make your practice runs with that. Two or three wire twists, even three wire with one of them different than the other two look good. some scrap hard wood and copper wire will allow you to do a lot of learning before you start cutting into the good stuff.

Mike

Hi Tony,

I also use 24 ga. wire. I've always used 24k gold wire. The gold doesn't work harden as much as silver; and who doesn't like 24k gold.

Mike offered some good advice. Practice with copper wire until you get the hang of the work.

I've become a bit skeptical about suppliers claims of "dead soft". I've bought plate material that was supposed to be dead soft and I couldn't do anything with it until I annealed it. Once you have twisted your wire, it will work harden some and will no longer be dead soft. This isn't always a problem, but it's easier to work with if the wire isn't arguing with you.

It isn't too difficult to anneal your materials, if you have a kiln. But, it can be done(carefully)with a torch. After you anneal it, it may have some firescale and will need to be pickled. Pickling solution is cheap. I keep my pickling solution in an old crock pot. It works better if it is warm. Once the material comes out of the pickle, it will have a dull finish. It's easy to put a brushed finish on it with a piece of fine Scotch-Bite. You can't get all the way to the bottom of the turns with the Scotch-Brite. But, the two tone finish gives a nice contrast and depth to the look of the twisted wires. Once you have the wires installed on the handle material, you can put a mirror finish on the wires with a quick buff on a cloth wheel that has very little compound.

Wow, I am overwhelmed at the response and depth of answers. Thank you Dan, Lynn , Brion, Mike

and Steve. I really appreciate the help. I have fretted about the dagger since I started this journey. It is nice to know there is some help out their. Mike once again you have a great suggestion with copper wire. So are electrical guys like cops and will do anything for donuts? I have wondered about Silver work hardening. I have had a little experience with that, non good. Thanks again guys.

Tony

You can also pick up various gauge copper wire in small rolls at your neighborhood hardware, building supply and hobby stores.

Hey Tony,

There is a tutorial that I did about building wire wrapped handles on this Forum. Didn't know if you had seen it……….

Making a Spiral Fluted and Wire Wrapped Dagger Handle

Steve , I had not seen your tutorial. It is really well done and extremely helpful. I really had no idea where to start. Thanks so much. I owe you a drink of your choice in Atlanta.

Tony

(quote from Phil Dwyer : "You can also pick up various gauge copper wire in small rolls at your neighborhood hardware, building supply and hobby stores.")

Thanks Phil

It might be worth your while to take Kevin Cashen's Quillon dagger class. I am sure it would shorten the learning curve considerably.

I have actually been thinking of doing just that. Thanks