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If I stepped on any toes, I apologize - that was not at all my intent

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David,

I primarily make hidden tang knives. I usually step all four sides and I make sure the junction of the ricasso and tang are much softer than the cutting edge. As you mentioned, we all want our knives to be as good as possible,....within reason.

I believe that the real strength or weakness of a hidden tang knife is in the joints. If the maker is sloppy with his joinery allowing a lot of movement between parts, the knife will more likely fail when under stress. If the joints are tight, the parts essentially become a solid object. So, as long as the back of the ricaso is being pulled into the handle, causing the shoulders to bear against the front of the guard, with no side to side or top to bottom slack, all other factors being equal, there should not be an issue whether it is filed two or four sides. I prefer four since that bearing surface is surrounding the blade and, in my opinion, would actually allow more contact where I think its most needed, which is directly into the guard face.

That being said, I make my tang about 75% the size of the ricasso where it exits the back of the ricasso. Then it tapers. But this taper should be gradual and somewhat graceful.

Thank you very much Lin.

The points you've made are profound, hence your M.S. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//cool.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />

In regards to the individual components, when made, fit and drawn together correctly, their working together to create a single solid unit is sound reasoning.

It's exactly what I was looking for in response to my question. Thanks again !

-wez

Hello David, no toes stepped on at all, great questions. Like my friend Lin, the majority of my knives are hidden tang, and I agree with everything he stated. I do file or mill all four faces. One example of Lin's solid piece handle would be a Japanese sword. The whole handle assembly on a katana is usually held together with one bamboo pin. The reason it works is all the pieces fit correctly, no looseness. This has not changed in hundreds of years, because it works.

I do make my tangs beefy, like Lin, with a gradual taper. I also make my tangs soft. The reason being, that I would rather have a tang bend than break, if it were to fail. So far in all my testing and using knives in cutting demonstrations, there have been no failures at all. I do my shoulder work after heat treat, tempering, and drawing the tang and spine. Some do it before. Concerning stress risers, my tang-ricasso junction has no sharp corners before heat treat, well rounded, to avoid that issue.

A good number of my knives will have hamons, being clay coated before heat treating. I still draw the tang soft even though it was not hardened. Just being sure.

So, no I do not see you overthinking things. Just making sure you are making the best knife possible. Good job.

Brion

Hi Brion - Thank you.

First Lin & now you --- 2 makers who, when they speak, I listen & take notes !

Until your replies I've often questioned the "beefy" nature of the tangs on my knives. This thread has been great in terms of validating different aspects of construction, and confirmation for me that I'm not "over building".

Interesting fact that you do your shoulder work after Heat Treat. I'm going to give that a shot in the not so distant future. There has to be something to it if you're using the technique.

And your mention of the single "Mekugi" in Japanese Sword construction has never ceased to amaze me. The fact that, to this day, it's still "standard method of construction", is confirmation that it works, and works well !

Thanks very much to both of you for sharing your thoughts and methods.

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David,

I will echo what Lin and Brion have already said. I file four shoulders. I have cut the shoulders both before heat treat and after. When I do it can depend on the steel or type of knife. But often, it is matter of what I feel like doing at the time.

I harden my differentially heat treated blades into the ricasso area. But, have the hardened area drop off the bottom of the ricasso, short of where the guard shoulders will be cut. If the blade has been full quenched, I will draw the temper on the tang quite soft.

I agree with the concept of the fittings adding structural support to the blade. I have never had a blade fail at the guard shoulders.

"Beefy" tangs are the way to go. Just because they are often called "stick" tangs, doesn't mean they should be twigs. My top and bottom shoulders step down about .100". Less on a small blade. The tang then tapers through the ferrule to a dimension that accommodates the handle material.

David

I only use 2 shoulders. I did try using 4 mnay years ago, but found it to be more work and did not have very good luck with it. The method I use for 2 shoulders results in a "tight as possible" fit as I allow the guard to conform to the tang with a 100% contact interference fit.

As Lin mentioned, done correctly, both methods should serve the purpose and can be verified by testing.

Brian

Excellent answers, thank you. David you are welcome and Japanese sword methods still amaze me too. By the way, the tang or nakago on their swords is fairly soft, but pretty beefy and goes about 3/4 of the way into the handle.

Brion

I don't even know where to begin, but I know that in writing and posting this, I am in the company of four guys whom I respect immensely.

It's no secret how many take-downs I make.

Probably 98% of the knives I've made this century were take-down. Maybe 500+?

I only cut the top and bottom of the ricasso.

I've sent these knives all over the world. From Africa, to Australia to Alaska, etc. Hard use knives and collectibles.

I've not had one knife come back that failed. Not one.

In all of my own testing I've never seen one fail.

Done with a bit of precision, of which all those participating in this thread are capable, our knives will perform all of the functions - and more - that can be expected of a knife.

I think, also, many times, some folks fail to understand that all of our knives have limitations.

Would we use a Don Hanson/Hank Knickmeyer/Jerry Rados auto folder to chop kindling?

Of course not.

But those are all still knives made by high-end makers for many thousands of dollars.

My point is that customers should at least have an idea of where to draw the line of either use and/or abuse of his knife.

Whether we use two shoulder cuts or four, pin or solder, JB weld or Epoxy - or full take-down, it's important that we fully inform our customers of what to expect from our knives.

Honestly, somebody tells me they want a knife that'll hack through an F-150 without falling apart, I build 'em a full tang Brute De Forge. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

If someone is going to use a belt knife for common sense cutlery use, there's practically nothing that we, as at least semi-knowlegable makers, make that won't stand up to the challenge.

My JS performance knife, which just about pulled Don Hanson's vise off the wall, and took a four foot cheater to get to 90 degrees, was a full take-down, 2 shoulder cut ricasso, pins/no epoxy and looks today just like the day I made it.

For some reason, I always feel that steel that has been properly cycled with due attention to grain size, is far stronger than we may give it credit for.

I'm saying that if you can put a knife together that is tight, with no slop, it'll handle most anything you can throw it.

But do it right from the very beginning.

2 cuts will work fine.

And 4 will do it too. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

David,

As you have seen from the response you've gotten, there are makers who really take the subject of your question seriously, which is a pleasure to see. It was a great question. You should also see that there is some latitude about which method you can go with, all having merit.

They all have this in common though, beefy but tapered tangs, tight joints/tolerances, and proper heat treatment.

Steve, thanks for your response & for addressing quenching only in the Blade/Ricasso area. I like your statement "it's a matter of what I feel like doing at the time". Proof for me that "there's more than one way to skin a cat" in terms of acceptable, solid design.

Mr. T, I've let you know on more than one occasion the impact you've had on me as a knifemaker. I'll never forget sitting at the table next to yours, (BLADE 2011)being a guest of Kevin Casey. I'm sure you didn't know me from Adam, but as a Bladesmith, that experience forever changed me. Thanks for your thoughts & response. I seriously take into consideration everything you say in regards to knifemaking.

Thanks again Brion <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> I think it's going to be a minute before I'm ready, & have the skill set required to attempt proper forging & finish of Japanese Samurai class blades,(Katana, Wakizashi, and others). However, there's no doubt we can learn a lot in regards to solid, proven construction techniques from their study.

Karl, Karl, Karl, at the risk of plagiarizing<img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//tongue.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' /> I don't even know where to begin, but I know that in writing and posting, I'm in the company of many guys whom I respect immensely. And you my friend - are sharing the top of the list !

And I wasn't being sarcastic in my plagiarism of your above statement. You've touched on so many important & profound points I really don't know where to begin.

Hows about I just say thanks for so graciously sharing the many skills and techniques you've used to make, what are some of the finest Take-Down style knives any of us have had the pleasure of viewing and using.

Yeah Lin, if you hadn't said it, I was going to. I noticed the common denominators present in most every post related to construction too.

Thanks Guys ! I appreciate you taking the time out to post and share what you know.

I feel so lucky to be a part of such a great and unique community of skilled artisans !

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