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Edge Wear Without Indented Ricasso

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Posts: 23
Eminent Member Journeyman Bladesmith (5yr)
Topic starter
 

Hey everybody!

I typically make my knives with ricassos narrower than the blade itself, but sometimes I see a neat design with the edge and ricasso the same width (like a Loveless drop hunter). As tempting as it is, I can't get around the idea that, as the blade is sharpened over time, it will naturally recurve, or the ricasso will end up wider than the blade itself.

I have similar reservations with starting the plunge above the ricasso (so the heel is full material width). I sharpened some production knives with drop-forged bolsters that went down to the heel for a friend and had to grind it down to allow the edge to keep contact with a cutting board.

Is there a design aspect I'm missing that allows blades without indented ricassos to not look silly with repeated sharpening?

I look forward to your thoughts,

-Ethan

 
Posted : 10/01/2024 1:11 pm
Kiril Mitrashkov
Posts: 49
Trusted Member Apprentice Bladesmith
 

Most of my knives are with same size blade and ricasso. I may be wrong, but here in Europe, this is the preferred shape. 
The wear of the blade when sharpening will happen for so long time, that it will be a roblem that our grandchildren and their (grand)children will have to deal with. 
Some photos of forged, and not only, blades with such shape:

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[img] [/img]

[img] [/img][

 

I am not lazy, I am on energy saving mode!

 
Posted : 10/01/2024 2:53 pm
Kevin R. Cashen
Posts: 126
Estimable Member Admin
 

Hello Ethan

You will notice in the pictures above how Kiril has added a semicircular notch (the actual choil rather than the heel that is often mistakenly referred to as a choil) in the edge, near the plunge to alleviate this problem.   This is exactly how I teach to deal with the issue on knives with no heal, where the edge is in line with the bottom of the ricasso.  One of the most fallacious arguments I have ever heard in knifemaking is that a heel or choil notch creates a problem in use and thus the edge must be in line with the bottom of the ricasso with no notch or interruption to avoid some imaginary problem in use.  I have never found this to be the case, short of something extreme, such as plunging the entire blade up to the hilt into an object, which is easily avoided as it is hardly ever necessary or advised.  In fact quite the opposite is the case with a greater issue in regular sharpening where without the choil there will be an area near the plunge that will be very awkward to sharpen and will invite scuffing of the shoulders on the stone (very unsightly on a Damascus blade).   

For sharpening any blade it is ideal to have a consistent and even stroke, over a uniform edge, from start to finish with the same angle, leaving not thick or dull spots.  If the plunge radii are involved in the sharpening it makes this almost impossible.  Eventually, over time, a hollow will begin to form on the blade in front of a thicker, off-angle, area coming off the plunge.  This is what I refer to as the classic “Grand-Daddy’s knife” look, as we have all been shown somebody’s “Grand-Daddy’s knife” that has that hollowed out look in the edge just off the ricasso from years of sharpening.  It does take a very long time to happen on a good edge holding knife, but my goal is that any of my knives will be around in 200 years and still looking good.  If my name is on a “Great, Great Grand-Daddy’s knife” I want is as useful as it is today.   The heel or that handy choil notch that Kiril has shown in his images is a great way to do that.       

This post was modified 12 months ago by Kevin R. Cashen
 
Posted : 11/01/2024 11:35 am
Joshua C States
Posts: 353
Reputable Member Journeyman Bladesmith (5yr)
 

Ethan,

I always referred to that point where the edge meets the tang or ricasso as the choil (pronounced CHoll) and most knife aficionados call that little transition a choil regardless of how it is formed. As do both the Mirriam Webster and Oxford dictionaries. 

I use three types in my terminology:
1. The flush choil, where the edges lines up with the bottom of the ricasso or simply ends at a guard or bolster plate. The latter being very common on Northern European designs even today, often called "no choil".
2. The dropped choil, or what Kevin calls the "heel" of the edge. This is where the edge protrudes below the bottom of a ricasso.
3. The notched choil, which is what Kiril has given examples of, where the line of the edge, if extended, will fall in line with the bottom of the ricasso, so a maker adds a notch between the two to facilitate sharpening the entire edge from tip to the choil. Some folks call this a "shapening notch".

I only use the no choil on a knife with no ricasso and only when attempting to make a historically correct Nordic Seax. If I do a knffe with a ricasso and the edge is in-line with the bottom of the ricasso, there will be a notched choil. Typically, I will use the dropped choil (edge heel) with a ricasso for the reasons Kevin stated. 

You may hear a term "Spanish Choil" which is a dropped choil with decorative filing in the edge heel. 

Whatever you call it, you have to decide as the maker, what style to use for each blade. My only warning about using a flush choil and ricasso combination is what Kevin already said about it being almost impossible to shapen the entire edge without marring the plunge cut areas. This is especially true when the plunge cuts are rounded rather than square. It's nearly impossible to create a true square corner in the bottom of the plunge, but I do try to keep mine as square as possible most of the time. I do this because even with a dropped choil, a rounded plunge cut will usually takes some damage during sharpening.

Posted by: Kevin R. Cashen

(very unsightly on a Damascus blade).

 

“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”

 
Posted : 11/01/2024 8:30 pm
Matthew Parkinson
Posts: 550
Honorable Member Journeyman Bladesmith (5yr)
 

I find a lot of folks assume that a flush choil design cant be forged to shape, this is a miss truth. Lin Rhea showed me this method then later I noticed it being used in one of the Pathe videos on youtube of the Sheffield forgers. 

The Interesting thing in this method is that the rounded "choil" is a result of the method of forging , as seen in this blade that is as forged. 

I think we worry to much about how our work will "Last" as in looking new,  I want my work to age not last. I want it to be used, I want my chef knives to be recurved boning knives in a hundred years, still used and cherished as a favorite knife,   like the family knives I remember growing up. 

MP

 
Posted : 12/01/2024 8:18 am
Karl B Andersen
Posts: 105
Journeyman Bladesmith Forum Moderator
 

I've made a LOT! of knives like this and am still waiting to hear the first complaint.

They would have to be sharpened often to cause a real issue.

Like Kevin alluded to, make sure the steels used were of proper ally and heat treatment to resist ease of diminishment.

[img] [/img]

 

[img] [/img]

 
Posted : 12/01/2024 8:35 am
Joshua C States
Posts: 353
Reputable Member Journeyman Bladesmith (5yr)
 

Posted by: Matthew Parkinson

I find a lot of folks assume that a flush choil design cant be forged to shape, this is a miss truth.

I had this same discussion with another smith not too long ago. He claimed that both the notched choil and the flush choil must be stock removal because "forging the bevels requires you to draw the edge down below the bottom of the bar". This is not true as I showed in another thread on this forum: Bird & Trout – Show and Tell – Your Work – American Bladesmith Society Forum

It took me a long time to learn how to control the hammer and move the steel in the direction I wanted.
In no small part to working with better smiths than me.

“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”

 
Posted : 12/01/2024 8:15 pm
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