Danny,

The first thing I'll say is that defining "good" in a knife is not just about how many times it'll cut through "X" and still shave. Don't get me wrong, it's a big part of it--but that's why the ABS performance tests demands a SHARP blade that will RETAIN that edge and hold up under STRESS. Anyway, you probably already knew that, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

As to what to expect out of a good blade...well, I haven't done much quantitative testing myself, but I do have a few anecdotes:

1) I made a chopper out of 5160 a couple years back and then spent the day playing with some rope, water bottles, tin cans, and 2x4's. I cut for hours and never needed to sharpen it--probably went through 30-40 tin cans, 50-70 plastic water bottles, 5 2x4's, and a hundred cuts or so on the rope.

2) In preparation for my JS test, I made six nearly identical blades with three different heat treating protocols. Then I tested each one extensively with rope and wood, and I bent three of them. After the bend on my performance test, the blade came back perfectly straight, with a 7 degree bend at the ricasso, where I deliberately softened the steel in order to relieve stress. It'll still shave today. My testing MS also did his own little experiment when he saw how sharp my blade was. He took a business card and flexed it between his fingers so it was sort of domed up. Then he took my blade and started making cuts, one after another, in the same spot, going a little deeper each time. He wanted to see how many he could make before he got through from one side of the business card to the other. Final result was sixteen (which, incidentally, was as many as he'd ever seen).

3) I made a 4" drop point for a friend out in California. Remember that big wind storm that hit over there last year sometime? His property got hit, and he had trees down all over the place. He Emailed me and told me he'd been using that little knife to cut limbs and clear brush "all day long" and hadn't needed to sharpen the knife once.

Anyway, I'm sure some of the other makers will have better specifics for you, but that's what I've got. Do keep in mind, though, that it's not all about sharpness. You could harden the heck out of a piece of steel and slice phonebook paper for years with it, but you could also chip that blade just looking at it.

Zack

Danny,

Zack has provided some anecdotes that show what a good knife is capable of. I, as well as others, could do the same, but it wont help to hear many more additional accounts. Suffice it to say that you are not happy with your results.

In my opinion, we would need to see or hear just how YOUR knife performs, then discuss the heat treat and edge geometry of the very knife YOU are testing.

Perhaps you could set up a test of a certain number of chops, rope cuts, etc. and include appropriate pics. This test knife does not need to be bent in our case, unless you are just curious about that aspect. You will need to know the size and type of knife, the steel, the particulars on hardening and draw back, and geometry.

You may already have this information and would not have to perform the test again to know all of this. But, in my opinion, this is the way to get to the real answer. It will do a couple of things. It will make sure that you are not missing something in your process that will prevent you from making a good knife and it will instill the confidence you are lacking at the moment.

Is it possible that you might do some controlled testing like we're talking about?

Edited to add: Ed's post below prompted me to add that I am assuming that the feats you describe in your opening post are somewhat exaggerated. I know what you are saying and respond knowing that you are wanting your knives to perform well and not implying that you would expect them to have magical qualities. We've all heard such tales and your use of hyperbole is not confusing or taken wrong by me. I think we are on the same page.

Again, all we are wanting is to make a knife that performs reasonably well and as we would expect. Zach's outline describes a knife that performs well and it's performance is on par with a camp knife or a ABS test knife.

|quoted:

Ok, I read so many articles and hear so many stories about peoples knives slicing through nails and peeling steel pipe like a potato and skinning over 500 animals and still shaves. I'm not sayin it's not true, I just can't get any of my knives to do this. So, I really want to know what I should expect from a finished knife. Please tell me some of the cutting tests and results I should be seeing from a good knife. Please be specific, should be able to slice 3/4 rope 100 times and still shave, should be able to cut 200 cardboard boxes and still slice telephone book paper, I don't know, any help would be greatly appreciated. My confidence is not very high right now. Thanks in advance, Danny

Look at it this way, each blade shape, geometry and makeup has an intended purpose. Using a knife for many of the purposes you mentioned, i.e. cutting nails and steel pipe with, well that's just not practical nor realistic. Chopping wood, shaving, skinning is a very realistic purpose. Also look at this, razor blades, do you honestly think they would chop 2x4's in half? Nope. How about a scalpel? Nope.. Having a survival/utility type knife that does all of those to some degree is boastful and all but seriously, take that same knife and shave paper with it, 3 times without leaving a hole anywhere in the paper. You just wont be able to do it. Could you do this with a razor blade? Oh yes!

Another example, take the classic Sykes Fairbairn dagger. It's intended use is to stab in a few specific locations, due to the blade design they are very fragile and will not take bending that well in fact many broke because of that. Would it cut nails and 2x4's? Not many if any at all, however it would puncture items like no other blade. As for being 'sharp' you are riding along a narrow ridge and that alone will cut, same with any slashing knife, i.e. katana.

The final area that *NO ONE* seems to want to discuss or even bring up is blade skills. Someone who knows the limits and how to use the specific blade design is going to do far greater than the person who does not. Head over to youtube and watch all the video's of people breaking katana's because they were handled improperly to get a crystal clear example of this <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Then head down to see a sushi chef using a knife and you will see very quickly what I am talking about.

Limits is based on geometry, heat treatment, material used, sharpening and how it is used.

People like to boast and stroke their ego's.

I honestly think the best thing at this point is lets see some photo's of your knives and go from there.

Here is a suggestion Danny. Make a knife for yourself, nothing fancy. Make it out of a steel you are familiar with, such as 1084. Heat treat it to the standards for 1084 which can be found online.

http://www.cashenblades.com/heattreatment.html

This is a good reference by Kevin Cashen.

Use the knife around the house, in the backyard, wherever you would normally use one. Put it to real world tests and see how it holds up. You might be amazed at what a properly heat treated knife can do. Every knife has its limitations, depending on steel, edge geometry, type of knife, and heat treating. That is one reason we still have cutting contests at Hammer Ins. Yes they are fun, but the purpose is to see how well the knife will stand up and to make sure we have the heat treating down for whatever steel we are using. As Ed states a portion of it comes down to, do they know how to use a knife correctly.

Give us some specifics, like what steel you are using, where you think the blade has failed, and what you are expecting out of it.

And yes I do test my blades. 2X4's, hard oak lumber, cans, water bottles, rope, edge deflection. Whatever the knife is suited for. The main thing I am looking for is edge chipping or rolling also do I have the edge geometry correct for the knife.

Brion

Alright guys,I really appreciate the feedback. I was really trying to keep this really simple and just find out some very realistic, simple, practical tests you guys use to determine if you hit the marks on heat treat, geometry,etc. The next couple days I'll try and photograph some tests with a little hunter I just finished and post them up. Thanks, Danny

I am not sure what you are using to sharpen with but my setup (water stones I bought from japan) I can quickly tell how the user holds the knife, what type of cuts they are making, where they feel the knives center of balance is and if their form is wrong.

The secret is to feel the knife. Also based on this I have to say that certain blade shapes are better suited for some people and less so with others; yes you can change your form and technique but often it's easier to change the blade to suit. Mostly based on the persons natural form. One person I know she uses a slight rocking motion on downward cuts and I gave her one knife with a curved edge towards the front and that immediately made better cuts for her. Was it the blade shape that made better cuts? No, it was her natural form when cutting that make the better cut using the curved blade.

I'm going to relay two of my favorite quotes.

The first one is actually one I heard from Kevin Cashen when he was quoting Roman Landes:

"Geometry cuts. Heat treatment determines how long."

And the second was from my good friend Jerry Rados:

"Jesus Christ can send a bar of steel down from Heaven. It will only be as good as the heat treatment it gets on Earth."

So many variables involved, it's difficult to say what any particular knife of any steel SHOULD do.

I know I've had a simple 5160 hunter field dress, skin and quarter 8 does and 6 bucks before sharpening. 14 deer.

I've had a W1 hunter dress and skin a couple moose cows and a few yearlings without sharpening.

I had a four inch hunter chop down a tree and still shave hair!

And then I've had knives only perform so-so.

I will say that seeking to improve our knives' performance and doing the research necessary to do so is a daunting and admirable task, and I salute you for doing so.

Keep at it.

Danny

A bit of advice I will offer is in your testing, do not make a finished knife. All you need is a crude sharp piece of steel that you are working with. Make a crude handle with leather and duct tape or similar. The point here is to not take the time to make a pretty knife, but rather get something functional that you can test.

By doing this, you can quickly get to the testing stage without spending a lot of time shand sanding, fitting etc.

Another thing is start with a thick edge geometry and test out the blade, then thin up the edge geometry a bit and test again. Keep doing this until you get the blade too thin to hold up to anything. Take notes along the way and dont let the blade get too hot as you thin it down. You will quickly see the effects that edge geometry has for a given task.

Now if you make several of these test blades and harden all of them the same and temper them at different temperatures, you can quickly come up with a lot of information on heat treating and edge geometry for the performance you would like from your blades.

Brian

Thanks for all the advice guys. Been a busy week, hopefully I can get some of this done in the next few days. Danny

Here is the knife and the first set of tests with it. I took Brians advice and left the knife a little thicker through the blade than I normally would. I'll describe numerically the process of making and testing the blade that way the pics make more sense hopefully. Then I'll do the same thing after I thin it out unless you guys catch something that I'm doing terribly wrong then I'll make another one. The steel is Aldo's 1084 with a 3 inch blade. 1)forged knife, when I start approaching the finished blade I turn the heat down in the forge. My last couple cycles I heated the blade to about 1200F or so, take the blade out and do small light blows from tip to ricasso with the hammer to ensure all is straight. then I do 2 complete thermal cycles(from critical to air cool)then let the blade air cool. 2)profile and rough grind, then back to the forge. I heated up the blade from ricasso to tip and let the blade soak for about 5 minutes or so, the forge is dialed in at about 1650F so I keep and eye on the blade so it doesnt overheat. I do 3 more complete thermal cycles, then heat up the blade from tip to ricasso to critical and quench in parks 50(the parks was at ambient which was 90F),I checked for straightness in the blade then back to the forge where I heat the edge to critical and quench again.(parks was at about 120F)I have been told that 10xx steels do not benefit from a double quench, I cannot scientifically prove or disprove this, all I know is that when sanding and handling the steel it feels harder with a double quench. I do use rockwell files and most blades come in at about 60+ with them. lastly, I put the knife in the oven to temper it, I did 2 cycles at 350F, 1 hour each. 3)ground knife down to where it is now then sharpened. I blued the blade and scribed 3 lines on it to show the dimensions of the grind before I started cutting,.020 is the botton line,.035 is the middle line, and .050 is the top line. you can see in one of the pics that the .050 line is about .200 up from the edge. I will use these same dimensions when I thin the blade also. 4)testing, the brass rod test showed no flex on the edge but the blade did not chip when I pulled the blade down the rod. 5)next I shaved hair, then I pushed and pulled the blade through phone book paper and cut with no problems. 6)after this I layered a 2x4 about 30 times, it still shaved and cut phone book paper. 7)then I made about 50 slices of 8/9 oz leather, it shaved some but struggled getting started slicing the phone book paper, but once started it sliced pretty good. it cut regular paper easily. 8)I pushed the knife completely through 10 cuts of new 3/4 manilla rope, after this it tore paper and just barely shaved a couple hairs 9)lastley I cut around a pepsi can, then I made 4 more slices down one side of the cut can, after this it would not cut paper or shave but it still seems to cut leather ok and I can force it through the manilla rope. Well thats what I got so far, I look forward to hearing your thoughts and wisdom. Thanks for now, Danny

Good job Danny!

Looks great Danny. You got it.

Brion

Want to try something very impressive?

Take a kleenex, fold it in half then again and again till it's about 1 inch wide. Then ROLL it as tight as you can. It should look like a cinnamon roll right now, so take slices on it, say 1/16" thick. You want to push in one stroke from top to bottom in one fluid motion.

Sounds easy but it's quite brutal on edges. What you need to look for is certain spots in the edge will very quickly became obvious, note those locations and look at the area with some magnification.

Another test. Shave paper, the goal is not to cut thru the paper at all but shave patches from it.

Ok, back at it tonight. Really frustrated now. Here's how it went. Thinned blade some, as you can see in the pic the bottom dimension,.020, moved up the most, the .035 and.050 moved a little less. At first sharpen the blade seemed to have gotten sharper with shaving hair and going through phone book paper. Then I did the brass rod, the edge flexed out and then went back, but when I pulled the blade down the brass rod the edge rolled a little, didn't chip just rolled. So I went back to the buffer to buff the roll out and the blade didn't seem as sharp. Went back to the 1x30 and sharpened a wire back on it then buffed. At this point I can tell it's not as sharp as the initial sharpen, I went ahead and cut the 2x4 30 times like before, at this point the blade is dull. Resharpened again, by now I've pulled the edge back to where it's a little fatter again. I tried to cut the 3/4 manilla rope and it was a total struggle to cut 2 times. Then I stabbed the table and broke off the tip(boy do I feel better) lol! So then I decided to sit down and ponder my quandry for a bit. As I was sitting there I looked over and saw my rockwell files, so I thought why not. I went 55,60, then 65. None of the files scratched the blade. Well I'm not real sure how acurate the files are so I've decided to do a couple more draws just in case the knife actually is as hard as the 65 file says it is. So anyway, how bout a little hand up here guys, what do you see wrong with my h/t or any other part of my process and how do the first tests stack up to what a good knife is supposed to do or what your knives usually do. Any help would be greatly appreciated right now.

Thanks, Danny