I can tell you that NONE! of what I wanted to achieve in knife making happened over night.

Or even in a couple years.

The aspects of not only making a knife, but also putting it together so as to result in a good knife business, are countless.

It takes time to put it all together.

As trite as it may seem to say, first just learn to build the knife you want to be known for.

"How does one manage this money dilemma and maintain the ability to continue building ?? "

It's different for each one of us.

That's not an easy question to answer in this venue.

This is a subject that every one must find there own path on. that said, what you are asking about is basically what business model you should use.

in a very broad way there are a few different models that seem to work well as custom makers. First is the High end collector market, making a few pieces a year all in the 10k+ range, the issue with that model is the higher the price point the fewer the customers, there are risks involved on banking everything on so small am amount of sales (no matter the value) the other end of the spectrum is the high volume lower price point, for some this means $75 but it can just as easily be $300 chefs. as long as the product is being sold honestly and the value is in line with the price point I don't see anything wrong with this, but the down side of this model is you must sell and make a lot of knives to make ends meet. last is sort of between the two extremes, and this seems when most makers end up landing, having a range of costs from a no frills cord wrapped hunter for under $200 up to fancy damascus hunters or folders for 1k+. Adding in commision work changes things as does adding in other alined sources of income. (tools teaching writing etc) as a craft person you need to hustle all the time, every one is a possible contact everyone in possible opportunity.

one of the best pieces of advice on this I ever heard was from Owen bush on another forum. paraphrasing he said find a level of quality you are comfortable with, fit finish etc then build to that level , and price accordingly. not every knife needs or wants a 2500 grit hand rubbed finish, sometimes a quick scotchbright is perfect. the thing is if you hold to that you will find your quality level will increase, as your skill increases it will be easy to meet that standard and you will do so faster.

MP

In addition to what has been said, remember that this can be one path or the other, with one of those two being a one way with no turning back. You can always improve your work and look better for doing it, but once you get that JS or MS there is really no turning back. If you are known for Master quality work and you decide you want to add a few "quick and dirty" pieces to the line-up, it will not be received well. I think this is a very topical question for our craft at this moment in time. A flood of new makers, and the internet outlets that will allow them to sell anything very quickly, has made it so that the most financially satisfying route is the lower quality/higher quantity, but the most satisfying for your own personal growth and for our craft is the higher quality, lower quantity path. I used to appreciate the ABS just for its education efforts and keeping the craft alive, but now I have come to believe that it may be vessel to carry the legacy of the highest levels of craftsmanship through this tempest of mass produced, low end work, because there is much less incentive to make the finest pieces in the current market. As always it comes down to money vs. your pride, which one will give you more comfort in life?

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In addition to what has been said, remember that this can be one path or the other, with one of those two being a one way with no turning back. You can always improve your work and look better for doing it, but once you get that JS or MS there is really no turning back. If you are known for Master quality work and you decide you want to add a few "quick and dirty" pieces to the line-up, it will not be received well. I think this is a very topical question for our craft at this moment in time. A flood of new makers, and the internet outlets that will allow them to sell anything very quickly, has made it so that the most financially satisfying route is the lower quality/higher quantity, but the most satisfying for your own personal growth and for our craft is the higher quality, lower quantity path. I used to appreciate the ABS just for its education efforts and keeping the craft alive, but now I have come to believe that it may be vessel to carry the legacy of the highest levels of craftsmanship through this tempest of mass produced, low end work, because there is much less incentive to make the finest pieces in the current market. As always it comes down to money vs. your pride, which one will give you more comfort in life?

I went this way post breaking my back fabricating steel already 100 disabled. I have no shortage of pride and grit, I do entirely see mass production as a bad thing unless it is shoddy work. A lot of water jet work going on of late in other outlets. I just hope I am headed the right long term direction. I tend to fabricate every thing in house but it is a struggle to carry it.

|quoted:

This is a subject that every one must find there own path on. that said, what you are asking about is basically what business model you should use.

in a very broad way there are a few different models that seem to work well as custom makers. First is the High end collector market, making a few pieces a year all in the 10k+ range, the issue with that model is the higher the price point the fewer the customers, there are risks involved on banking everything on so small am amount of sales (no matter the value) the other end of the spectrum is the high volume lower price point, for some this means $75 but it can just as easily be $300 chefs. as long as the product is being sold honestly and the value is in line with the price point I don't see anything wrong with this, but the down side of this model is you must sell and make a lot of knives to make ends meet. last is sort of between the two extremes, and this seems when most makers end up landing, having a range of costs from a no frills cord wrapped hunter for under $200 up to fancy damascus hunters or folders for 1k+. Adding in commision work changes things as does adding in other alined sources of income. (tools teaching writing etc) as a craft person you need to hustle all the time, every one is a possible contact everyone in possible opportunity.

one of the best pieces of advice on this I ever heard was from Owen bush on another forum. paraphrasing he said find a level of quality you are comfortable with, fit finish etc then build to that level , and price accordingly. not every knife needs or wants a 2500 grit hand rubbed finish, sometimes a quick scotchbright is perfect. the thing is if you hold to that you will find your quality level will increase, as your skill increases it will be easy to meet that standard and you will do so faster.

MP

thx for reply Matthew. Have watched you do your thing from a distance on social media for a couple of years now. Yes I suppose it is business model in the face of water jet and angle grinder makers I am emotionally struggling with.

|quoted:

I can tell you that NONE! of what I wanted to achieve in knife making happened over night.

Or even in a couple years.

The aspects of not only making a knife, but also putting it together so as to result in a good knife business, are countless.

It takes time to put it all together.

As trite as it may seem to say, first just learn to build the knife you want to be known for.

"How does one manage this money dilemma and maintain the ability to continue building ?? "

It's different for each one of us.

That's not an easy question to answer in this venue.

thx for reply Karl, yes a difficult question that is certainly a real world issue and why I asked it. I am a bit mule headed so selling my principals was never one my plate. What can be done vs what market bares is a struggle for certain.

Girnie,

I think that some of it boils down to your personal situation too and what you want to accomplish with it. Do you want this to be your Job? - and then what business model fits your market.

For me personally, this is/was a hobby for me because I enjoy the artistic side of making/creating things. Which is what lead me to the ABS seeing the amazing work of the MS and JS members. I still work full time as a Project Manager and use this as a relaxation (most of the time) but strive to make each project much better than the last, I would love to get to a JS level at some point, as a personal goal. Because i HATE trying to set a price on my work I have only recently looked at selling some of my work. Really at this point the aim is to sell some with the goal to buy better tools/materials.

Girnie, I think this is a question we all have wrestled with at some point in our journey. All I can tell you is what I chose to do and why I did it that way. When I first started out, I made simple knives. Full tangs with scales, (sometimes with bolsters), partial or stub tangs with a guard and spacer. Nothing complex and fancy, but I spent the time to get it clean and tight. I made knives to use, not knives for show. I sold them to sportsmen and hunters. Gave some away to family members or whatever. I just made sure they were heat treated right (I broke a lot of test pieces to make sure) and I made enough money to pay for supplies and maybe some nice handle material. There was no profit and probably a financial loss the first few years. (I truly don't think any year has been "profitable" in terms of money, but every year I have gotten better at my art.) I started getting noticed and my name got around. I got a few orders and started raising my prices for the extra bits and frills. I expanded into frame handles and through tangs. I stated making knives that I wanted to make and taking the occasional commission. It's been a slow road, but I always had a full time job to pay the bills. It doesn't sound like you have the same circumstances. I only have one full day a week to make knives. I don't make that many in a year so I shoot for the mid-high end.

My only advice to you is this. Whatever path you choose, always do the best work you can and always try and make the next one better. A good reputation is hard to make, but a bad reputation is impossible to shake.

Post some pics of your work and ask for advice and critique as often as you can. If you have a JS or MS somewhere close to where you live, see if they will allow you to bring your work to them for critique. If you have the chance to go to a knife show as a spectator, do it. See what's out there and talk with the makers when they have the time. The market is varied with many levels and niches. Find one that you are comfortable in and make the best of it. Don't forget to enjoy the journey.

|quoted:

Girnie, I think this is a question we all have wrestled with at some point in our journey. All I can tell you is what I chose to do and why I did it that way. When I first started out, I made simple knives. Full tangs with scales, (sometimes with bolsters), partial or stub tangs with a guard and spacer. Nothing complex and fancy, but I spent the time to get it clean and tight. I made knives to use, not knives for show. I sold them to sportsmen and hunters. Gave some away to family members or whatever. I just made sure they were heat treated right (I broke a lot of test pieces to make sure) and I made enough money to pay for supplies and maybe some nice handle material. There was no profit and probably a financial loss the first few years. (I truly don't think any year has been "profitable" in terms of money, but every year I have gotten better at my art.) I started getting noticed and my name got around. I got a few orders and started raising my prices for the extra bits and frills. I expanded into frame handles and through tangs. I stated making knives that I wanted to make and taking the occasional commission. It's been a slow road, but I always had a full time job to pay the bills. It doesn't sound like you have the same circumstances. I only have one full day a week to make knives. I don't make that many in a year so I shoot for the mid-high end.

My only advice to you is this. Whatever path you choose, always do the best work you can and always try and make the next one better. A good reputation is hard to make, but a bad reputation is impossible to shake.

Post some pics of your work and ask for advice and critique as often as you can. If you have a JS or MS somewhere close to where you live, see if they will allow you to bring your work to them for critique. If you have the chance to go to a knife show as a spectator, do it. See what's out there and talk with the makers when they have the time. The market is varied with many levels and niches. Find one that you are comfortable in and make the best of it. Don't forget to enjoy the journey.

our local Sacramento show is like Saturday night live honestly, mostly folks buying paki-mas and rehandling it with a few genuine guys mixed in. I recall one fella's card saying his knives had 4140 nickel in them.........I just smiled and walked away. Recently A master smith did agree to allow me to mail him work for him to pick apart and provide correction (exactly what I asked for).........I agree 100% on the quality / reputation concept. I will start posting things in my gallery here soon. I have been spending time doing research in the forums and making changes to how & what I do given my own direction shift with JS as a goal set. I had some personal emotional things about joining any organization to get over for a while first.

|quoted:

Girnie,

I think that some of it boils down to your personal situation too and what you want to accomplish with it. Do you want this to be your Job? - and then what business model fits your market.

For me personally, this is/was a hobby for me because I enjoy the artistic side of making/creating things. Which is what lead me to the ABS seeing the amazing work of the MS and JS members. I still work full time as a Project Manager and use this as a relaxation (most of the time) but strive to make each project much better than the last, I would love to get to a JS level at some point, as a personal goal. Because i HATE trying to set a price on my work I have only recently looked at selling some of my work. Really at this point the aim is to sell some with the goal to buy better tools/materials.

this is as much about revenue as working to be very good at a thing, the 2 have always been a ying / yang for me. Hard to carry anything if funds do not return to carry it. To many spine injuries with me I can not go back to work fabricating and been away from doing bench jewelry to long. Here in my area that industry is brutal cheap. My old mentor is a classically trained master jeweler and only makes 25-27 in this area, knew a Russian fella who was a master diamond setter classically trained in Russia and he went to drive truck to actually make some money. So this is it for me.......