Great Topic of the Month, Steve.

A good starting point for everyone, especially MS candidates, is to first read the Master Smith testing rules that former ABS Chairman Greg Neely wrote and I posted at, click: Master Smith Testing.

Greg Neely's article also provides useful guidance and advice.

This is a topic that is good to discuss because it needlessly stresses too many people. Once you wrap your mind around these techniques they are actually quite fun to do. I now find daggers my fun projects to chill out on when I need a break from the monotony of other knives. I am working on a very elaborate dagger right now and find it hard to pry myself away from it and work on the three camp and Bowie style knives that lay on the bench half finished.

This is a topic that I have always been interested in. What I would be most interesting in hearing is how many flutes do most of you put in your handles and how far around? With the few that I have attempted, I have always used eight flutes with a 1/2 twist. I used this many because I felt that it was easier to lay out without any type of jig. What have you masters used on your daggers and is there a standard?

Also, when I use a twisted wire inlet I find it easier to do before doing the fluting. Is this typical or am I looking at it backwards? I have used 16-18 gauge fine silver wire with either two or four strands. I know that this is getting into personal taste but would like to hear if there is a standard for this as well.

Thanks,

Gary

Steve's tutorial covers a lot of the technical and mechanical aspects of the handle. Beyond that is the aesthetics, which Steve also showed. Design is very important to the dagger. While there are some cut and dried rules set out by the test guide lines, there is a lot of room for tasteful design. It would be up to each maker to add elements of design or stick to the stripped down basics.

Stripped down might mean it has a blade with parallel edges, simple cross guard, and a round handle being fluted and having wire. While this description may sound plain and unappealing (and it can be), done with skill and tastefully considering texture and color contrasts, it can look great. James Emmons JS' recent showing is a really nice example.

Alternative design elements that some use might be:

a heart shaped blade, flared or carved guard, oval and/or tapered handle, higher end and/or specialized handle and fitting materials, etc.

In either case, the design of the dagger should be planned from its conception starting with a detailed drawing.

Oh, please do so.

Those who have this information to share - I personally ask to post up some pictures of the process.

Comments are nice. Pictures speak a thousand words. Or, a couple hundred anyway.

Thanks, Steve.

From my perspective the problem with this particular knife is a disconnect with its actual function and modern design concepts; you can’t get a working understanding of this blade, through direct experience in the 21st century without going to jail. And thus it has been relegated to an art piece, which saddens me to no end because the vast majority of the beauty of a knife is reflected in its effectiveness as a tool. Form follows function, and we have all seen knives that were simple yet so beautiful we didn’t have to pick them up to know they would perform their task excellently. A dagger is a sexy knife for the same reason we like to see women shooting automatic weapons and using swords in movies, being dangerous makes their beauty even more intriguing. A chicken has iridescent plumage of countless beautiful colors, while a falcon is fairly plain and monochromatic, but due to its pure lethal effectiveness in action we consider the falcon one of the most beautiful birds, while the chicken is nothing more than walking soup stock. This is much the same with the dagger.

However, things get VERY complicated with the ABS Mastersmith dagger due to these multiple disconnects from the original weapon and the modern “art knife”. For me it is even more difficult because I believe that at mastersmith level a maker should have “mastered” all aspects of the craft, i.e. fit and finish, heat treatment, execution etc… but most fundamental- functional design. We would not think highly of a hunting knife submitted for MS judging that felt like a lifeless lump of lead that would hurt our hand to use for dressing a deer, even if the applicant told us it was an “art knife”, because we know better, we know what a hunting knife is supposed to feel like. The more I learn about daggers, the more I am in awe of their beauty and complexity based on functional demands, and the tougher I get when evaluating modern interpretations.

With all that said I will force myself to focus on the specific area of this topic- the handle. Here the same very awkward disconnects exist and I feel I have to also force myself to address the aesthesis of the artwork in a vacuum since we would be colliding with functional considerations around every corner. But if there is one that that can be reconciled with real dagger function and the ABS Mastersmith dagger, it is handle shape. I would like to implore all those considering making this blade to avoid the broomstick handle! It is endemic among modern daggers and it does NOT work either aesthetically or functionally. A perfect cylinder my be easier (in a way too easy for Mastersmith work) to work out on a lathe, and layout for fluting but it just looks, and feels wrong.

On some of the other questions so far- I prefer to use four or more flutes, although if you also put the wire landings between you can start running out of room with more than four if your flutes aren’t very narrow. The degree of twist is a subjective thing and I often adjust mine to suite the lines of the piece overall. Some daggers look sleeker with a lazy ½ twist while others look loaded with energy, almost ready to pounce, with a full turn or more.

Gary’s question on wire size is very subjective and quite a matter of taste. My preference is always for finer wire with tight twists, it makes the wire look more precious and elegant to my eye; sort of a 3 karat cubic zirconia vs. ½ karat diamond thing. 18 gage or larger with a lazy twist is so coarse to my eyes that it makes it look like the handle was embellished with barbed wire; I really don’t like that look. I don’t think you can twist the wire too much. The tighter the twisting, the more elegant it looks and the easier the wire will be to work with, I have snapped my share of wire while twisting it to my personal tastes.

I want to share two of the videos that I filmed during Kevin Cashen's lecture on the Quillon Dagger presented at the 2013 ABS California Hammer-In in Tulare, California. After I returned home I edited the video footage and produced and uploaded three (3) videos to the ABS YouTube Channel. Part 1 is on Dagger Design, Part 2 is entitled "Forging a Quillon Dagger" and Part 3 is "Quillon Dagger Requirements for the ABS Master Smith Rating”.

I am embedding Part 1 and 3 below as they contain materials from the lecture that pertain to this Topic of the Month.

[media] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQzGrFQ5IQM [/media]

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[media] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUc92ZGgfTI [/media]

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On some of the other questions so far- I prefer to use four or more flutes, although if you also put the wire landings between you can start running out of room with more than four if your flutes aren’t very narrow. The degree of twist is a subjective thing and I often adjust mine to suite the lines of the piece overall. Some daggers look sleeker with a lazy ½ twist while others look loaded with energy, almost ready to pounce, with a full turn or more.

Gary’s question on wire size is very subjective and quite a matter of taste. My preference is always for finer wire with tight twists, it makes the wire look more precious and elegant to my eye; sort of a 3 karat cubic zirconia vs. ½ karat diamond thing. 18 gage or larger with a lazy twist is so coarse to my eyes that it makes it look like the handle was embellished with barbed wire; I really don’t like that look. I don’t think you can twist the wire too much. The tighter the twisting, the more elegant it looks and the easier the wire will be to work with, I have snapped my share of wire while twisting it to my personal tastes.

Thanks, Kevin. That's exactly what I was wanting to know.

I certainly hope those with experience post up their knowledge.

Such as how the wire inlays are begun AND! terminated to hold them in place.

What tools are/could be used to create the flutes as well as the channel for the wire?

How does one control the wire channel depth?

What happens at the end of the handle to create the termination of the flutes, as well as the wire channels?

How do you shape the flutes?

How do you finish the flutes?

What do you prefer to cover the ends of the handle material regarding spacers?

Do you build your dagger in full take-down mode, or do you epoxy it up when complete?

What jigs/helpers do you use to grind the blade or lay-out the handle?

I have done sssssssoooooooooooooooooo many long winded and photo-laden tutorials on take-down knives, that I do not feel guilty - at all - in any way about asking others to do the same here, as regards the Quillon Dagger.

Karl

I agree that it is time for our more experienced ABS members who have not participated in the past to join in and share their knowledge in this thread. Our mission is education.

Maybe I should just ask a question regarding one aspect of the dagger - handle material.

We can all agree that Ivory is a very acceptable material to use.

Beyond this, what other materials would be suitable?

Would figured wood be acceptable?

I have seen many of African Blackwood and ebony - but what about the figured types of materials?

Things like Koa or Gidgee or even Ironwood or burl-types - are these acceptable?

I do wish we had more folks involved in the conversation, as it will peter-out quickly with only a few of us involved.

If you have some friends/acquaintances/etc. that are familiar with the dagger and would like to invite them in - please do so!!

Karl, I see your question and although I don't think there is any restrictions on using wood, burl or otherwise, it would be wise, in my opinion, to use the best example of wood available so that any inherent characteristics of that wood wont create a problem where there would not be if you chose another wood or material. While this seems obvious, I have seen ones use a piece of ivory or stag that made there job very difficult and in fact they did not pass the test. The same would probably apply to a piece of wood. If you wanted to use a highly figured burl, you might have to deal with the accompanying voids and fissures when executing all of the grooves and flutes involved in this knife. Is it worth the risk? If you are able to do it well, sure. I chose blackwood for my handle because I wanted the dark material to contrast with the bright silver wire. So, not only was I thinking of the fact that blackwood is pretty reliably clear of cracks and fissures as well as being stable, it gave me the color I wanted. That was just dictated by personal taste.

If I were to make another test knife, I would be looking more at the historic examples that could be used as a framework for my dagger. I really like what Mike Q did with his dagger.

Thank you, Lin.

I appreciate your input.

I will echo what Lin stated Karl. I know of no restriction on handle material, however you have to think in terms of the dagger as a whole. Will a highly figured wood detract from the damascus blade, or will it acentuate it? Also again the problems with voids appearing when you least expect. I chose blackwood because as Lin said it accentuated the silver wire and spacers I used, plus it went with the look I was going for on the whole piece. I think the next dagger I make will have a completely wire wrapped handle like Kevin's daggers, just love those. In Arkansas for the week, but I will post more in a few days.

Brion