Filing is essentially a "learn by doing" type of thing. We each use hand tools a bit differently. The main point with hand files is to remember that they only cut one way. Dragging a file backwards across a metal work piece clogs the teeth, and leave big gouges in your work. Any way you slice it, hand filing a blade is a LOT of work, and in turn, using only files creates a LOT of finish work as compared to a grinder. Of special importance when using files is a "file card".... basically a two sided brush, with short, stiff wore bristles on one side, and softer filiment bristles on the other. Using one will not only keep the teeth clear a steel filings, but will also keep the file sharper, longer, and will help prevent/reduce the "gouges" from steel filing caught in the teeth.

Files come in a wide variety of tooth types, shapes, and cut depths. Generally speaking a #1 cut is the coarse cut and the cut gets finer and smoother as the numbers increase. Tooth styles (Bastard, Swiss, etc.) have some effect on how the teeth are angled and the way the file cuts. Diamond files also come in similar cut depth/coarseness. If you intend to continue making knife blades by hand filing, you will need to do a little research on different file makers and file types. You will probably end up spending the same amount of money buying all the files you will want/need, that you would have spent buying or making a belt grinder....just kidding, but good files are not inexpensive. So, spend the money and buy good quality tools. That may help with the "ugliness" situation you are having. I have a few Grobet/Habilis files that I really like, although I only use them on blades for touch-up and decorative work. I also have a set of diamond files, a set of Riffler files, several sets of smaller files, etc. Check out knife making suppliers (Jantz, Texas Knife, K&G Supplies, etc.) many of these companies sell different files for what we do.

I would close by saying that Ed has the main point when he says "using only files creates a LOT of finish work as compared to a grinder."

If you are interested in making a belt grinder (rather than buying one), there are several discussion boards at Iforgeiron.com dedicated to that sort of thing. (although I do NOT recommend making one of these things)

Matt:

If you can find someone who knows how to draw file properly you can do an incredibly clean job and much faster than most people would think. Your blades after filing; if done properly; will come to about a 120 grit finish. Filing and draw filing are two very different ways of getting the job done.Very hard to explain over the computer; very easy to understand in person.

I go over filing techniques in all of my intro classes; students are amazed at how fast and clean you can work. My first three years in making knives were with files and paper. You will learn to forge cleanly!!

Mike

I agree with Mike on the draw filing. It really works well when you get the hang of it.

I have days when I can file good and days when I feel like a novice. If you ever get a chance to watch someone who really uses a file for a living (they are called a "whitesmith"), you will be able to learn some things. Which file to use, the technique, and any inflections that are unique to the object's shape, etc.

Just as important is the need for a sturdy holding system which might require fabricating a vise or jig for a specific purpose. It will be well worth the effort and will save elbow grease in the long run.

Matt give me a call and swing by my place some time I can teach you how to draw file, and a few good tricks for normal filing as well. I love files, I find a good set of Sharp files can move metal all most and quickly as a grinder,with out all the rick to my knuckles or the nasty dust issues. for the most part I can also file more accurately and a with less chance of messing up. It is how ever far more physically demanding and some styles of work are better suited to files that others... a 4' integral would be great to file, a 12" chef not so much...

MP

So let's discus the technique of draw filing for a moment (while we have the opportunity).

As I understand it, after supporting the blade in a horizontal position, point towards you, and holding the file with both hands (one at each end), the file is placed against the blade surface at the head/point of the file. The file is then drawn towards you while simultaneously moving it from point to base of the file. The file moves from the starting position on the blade surface, (for sake of argument and illustration) the plunge cut area, along the blade to the tip while sliding the face of the file from the point to the heel.

I have used this technique to sharpen large working blades (like on a lawn mower) before I had any sort of belt grinder. It does move some metal, providing the files are in good condition to start with. I have never used this option for removing metal over a wide, flat surface like the face of a knife blade. Anyone have a short video or a series of photos?

when I went to school for machining I was taught to draw file.

I was taught to draw file by taking the file in two hands one on the point one on the grip and lay the file around 90deg to the direction of work. draw the file back and forth over the work with moderate pressure, the file can be angled to the direction of work by 15-20deg or so to help keep the file flat to the work. I was taught that 1st it is the only time a file cuts both directions, it can only be done with mill files, it is best for rapid removal of material and for flatting a long surfaces.draw filing in this manner leaves a finish about that of 80grit belt. using a fine file to refine from this point can leave a finish ready for 220 grit. piling and gauling of the work is the main issue to be avoided. use of chalk and a file card helps , I also have a habit of flipping the file every few passes and just using my hand to clear the filings.

MP

Thank you everyone for the input. Matt i'll be in touch soon. I'll forge out a few blades to give myself some material to practice with.

Mr. Parkinson: Do you start finishing your swords this way?

Joshua, a I do tend to do a lot of filing on swords, generally the higher the price point of the blade the more hand work I do. filed and stoned/blocksanded is the only way I have found to get a sword really flat and straight. And please call me Matt, Mr Parkinson is my father.

All,

I started out filing the first few blades I made. I actually think filing is more intimate with the steel. By that I mean it gives an acute sense of the grind lines on a blade. I still file portions of blades where the grind does not go back to the spine and I want a crisp line from the ricasso to the tip. On some sword blades this makes a major difference for me where it is hard to keep a 30 inch or greater flat line with no waves or dips when using a belt grinder. On those long blades or daggers I start with the grinder and then finish filing. With proper technique it is flawless to get the lines just the way you want them. The hardest thing is to move the file across the blade without rocking it. Making the draw and keeping the line just takes practice. I do not think there is hardly a blade that I shape where I do not use a file on at least some spot on the blade or ricasso.

I also will drag the file across my hand to remove small embedded chips. You can feel then and sometimes see them. With a very fine file I will draw and then wipe. Chalk on the file does help but it is not foolproof. Of course you are wiping it going with and not against the files teeth.

Dan

"And please call me Matt, Mr Parkinson is my father. "

I figured you'd say that. It's just that there are two people named Matt in the conversation, and to make matters difficult, both of them have last names that start with "P"!

|quoted:

"And please call me Matt, Mr Parkinson is my father. "

I figured you'd say that. It's just that there are two people named Matt in the conversation, and to make matters difficult, both of them have last names that start with "P"!

LOL I hadn't noticed that... you get a pass this time..

MP

I've always done a lot of filing. That came from knowing what I wanted things to look like and not being able to it with a belt grinder. That hurt my grinding progress. I did get better with files, at least.

I've got a good friend with 40+ years in the tool and die business. A person can draw file either pulling or pushing. Pull if the tang end is in your left hand. Push if the tang is in your right hand. If I'm draw filing delicately, I feel like pushing has better control.

Any file can be used but typically draw filing is done with mill files... they have a more pronounced steepness to the teeth so they shear better than other single cut types when held 90 degrees to the stroke line. Because the steepness of the teeth shears better, holding the file (say, for pulling) with the tang closer to you gets you easier shear (more shear ?).

The wider the file, the better the produced flatness. So, I've got a 14" Mill bastard. It's been cut in half to make it more manageable.

There's a thing about mill files. A person can get a bastard cut (coarse) in any two inch increment from 16" to 4". The spacing of the teeth is not the same through that length range, so a 4" mill bastard makes a finer cut than a 16"... by a lot. And then there are fine-cut mill files. So I hog metal with big bastards and finish into sanding with small, 4" fine cut mill files (about 200 grit). You think about this and many folks go to HT at 150 to 220. I do almost no sanding before HT... only the tight corners and delicate flats so I don't have to step down a lot in sanding after HT.

A big mill bastard and draw filing levels OK (end to end). Strike filing really levels end to end. It's a thing custom gun makers do.. octagon barrels, round barrels, doesn't matter. A person needs to cut a file into a shortish piece... without ruining it's HT. Yeah, I know, HTF does a person get that done. I was given some strike file pieces by the tool and die guy... and our relationship is, I don't ask questions about gifts. I'd bet a nickle Steve Culver could do this. So strike filing is running the file right down the blade length. It's a lot better at finding the high spots and eliminating them. A person does need to mind the ricasso/plunge cut, though. I can tell you tape (how ever many layers) will not work, and it helps to strike file the blade with some room working room left at the ricasso/plunge cut.

It took me a while for the technical annealing light to go on. The softer the steel, the easier everything is. Industry's technical annealing processes will produce a softer steel than any other method.

The tool and die guy sometimes uses chalk and sometimes doesn't. He says he can't prove to himself that chalk helps with pinning. He has a block of steel he bangs his files on to dislodge the chips about every 4 to 6 file strokes (hits it on a front corner), and he always looks at the teeth before starting in again. If he sees any tiny silver dots (pinned file waste), the file goes to the file card until they are gone.

Search on Falcon Tool Company. They sell a lot of files. Some of them very expensive. A thing about files... in general, a person gets what they pay for. Grobet makes very nice files. They are real tools. Nicolson makes good mill files and they make so many of them, they are relatively cheap. A "00" cut Grobet 10" or 8" double-cut flat file will absolutely move metal (not for draw filing use, though).

Don't ever let anyone tell you files are flat. Sometimes you will find one as flat as you can see, but mostly not, and that is true both end to end and side to side. There is an old beginning exercise for learning files. Piece of soft steel and a file. Now make a 1" square cube. Within 0.002" to 0.003" will get you a pass. It's done by filing a given surface from three directions (120 degrees apart) and knowing where your offness is then having finger/thumb pressing down on the file over that point. The process eliminates the inherent inaccuracy of the tool.

If you want to see what you are doing with a file very well, run marker on the steel.

Mike