Depends on the file Devan. Some old American files like nicholson were made from 1095 or W2 and would make a good blade. Some new files are made in China or other places, and the steel is questionable. Not sure what it is. Some are even low quality steel that has just been case hardened.

Brion

Devan, what was the condition of the file before you heated it?

Karl it was brand new, and thanks Brion I have an old black diamond file I picked up for 50 cents at trade day perfect shape just some rust

I ask because I question why you heated a fully hard file in the first place.

If it was brand new, it was harder than any knife blade you will make any way.

I'm not really certain what your experiment achieves.

well i read somewhere that in order to find out if a file is good material for a knife to heat it just past non magnetic then quench it in water and if it breaks clean then it would make a good knife, showing it would harden i guess. of course i read this way before i joined the ABS which is exactly why i ask the question, to prove or debunk this theory basically Karl. my experiment may not have proven anything at all just trying to attempt to find some knife steel. i realize it would be so much easier just to buy some good quality 5160 and know the chemical composition and how to heat treat it, but i have yet to forge my first knife and cant justify that amount of money just to throw it away during the learning process. so if i could find some steel that would harden and would make a half way decent knife while im learning i dont plan on trying to sell anything so pretty much just want learn and it not cost a fortune. i do apologize for the lengthy response but thought maybe this would clerify some of my intentions Karl. thanks so much!

I remember reading somewhere that "if you want to make an omelet, you have break a few eggs."

If your concern is that you don't want to spend the money on good blade steel while you are learning to forge steel to shape, (something that is perfectly understandable)then don't learn to forge using tool steel of any kind. Start learning how to move steel under the hammer with mild steel. You can use anything at all to learn the basics of forging. Forge a knife to shape out of anything to get the feel and body-knowledge of forging. That way when you buy the file for 50 cents at the yard sale, you will have learned the fundamentals of moving the steel and will have a better chance of getting a good knife out of it. If you have never forged steel before, I would not suggest trying to teach yourself, you will spend so much time reinventing the wheel that you won't get far. The learning curve is so steep and finding someone who can show you how is well worth the time and effort. Not many of us learned this by ourselves.

Here is the link to ABANA the American Artist Blacksmith Assoc.: http://www.abana.org/

Here is the link to the local Alabama affiliate: http://www.alaforge.org/

Contact them, join the local group, go to the hammer ins, and your progress will skyrocket.

You may even meet some knifemakers there.........

Also with regard to education remember that the American Bladesmith Society has schools in the USA in North Carolina, Arkansas, and Maine with classes taught by experienced ABS Master Smiths. In addition, the ABS has Hammer-Ins around the country and I have the list for 2014 posted on both the ABS Website and this Forum.

My point is that it was already hard. It's a file. It's obvious that it will harden.

You might perform that process with a piece of UNKNOWN steel that is in an un-hardened condition.

I forged a blacksmith knife from a worn out Nicholson file. Once I got the draw-back temperature right it performed great. It achieved 200 cuts through 3/8 inch sisal rope with no noticable wear. Dunno exactly what steel but the stuff cuts! Whatever steel you use, test it.

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Also with regard to education remember that the American Bladesmith Society has schools in the USA in North Carolina, Arkansas, and Maine with classes taught by experienced ABS Master Smiths. In addition, the ABS has Hammer-Ins around the country and I have the list for 2014 posted on both the ABS Website and this Forum.

My apologies, I should have mentioned that as well.

I don't know if Devan has any forging experience and blade making uses tool steels that are much harder to learn on (IMHO). I have turned away people who want to learn to forge a knife when they have no forging experience. I usually tell them to learn the basics of forging (tapering, drawing, upsetting, fullering, etc.) on mild steel first and blacksmiths are my first thought for learning to forge.

Joshua: i do have some forging experience but not much, with my work schedule the way it is taking any ABS class longer than a weekend is not an option at all in the next year and that disappoints me severely. but smiths learned by themselves before the ABS days so i have faith my friend lol thank you for the informative answers. Ben: i definitely plan to test the knife, what do you mean by draw temp?

Devan,

The hammer-ins offered by ABS and your local blacksmith org will generally be 1-3 day events with most of the action on the middle day. That's where you can really get to learn some forging skills, especially if the event sponsers an "open forge" time.

Draw back temperature is the second part of heat treating (HT) and probably the most criticial step in making a blade or tool of any kind. The two stages of HT are:

1. Hardening. Taking the steel to critical (or slightly higher) temp and quenching quickly in some medium (generally liquid like oil, brine, or water.)

2. Tempering. Also called draw back or draw down, this is reheating the blade to a specific temp and soaking it for at least 2 hours to "draw back" the hardness to a level that isn't brittle (as a hardened blade is)but still holds an edge.

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Hello all I heated a file past non magnetic and quenched it in water once I done that I hit it with a hammer and a piece snapped off clean didn't take any effort at all pretty much just tapped it with a hammer. is this good material to make a knife from?

A lot of steels will break like that when water quenched. Even those without enough carbon to make a good cutting (not whacking) knife. If you have a cut-off wheel, you can find out if a file is case hardened by clipping the front off, sanding fine, and etching. If it's case hardened, you will see a fine, dark line around the perimeter... darker than the parent steel because of the carbon added through casing. Obviously, case hardened files aren't usable for knives.

Nicholson still makes most of it's files out of 1095 and W1 (larger files and smaller files, respectively). The old Nicholson "Black Diamond" files are 1.25C... maybe not tool steel spec, but lots of carbon. Heat treating that much carbon takes understanding and technique. I've used large "Black Diamond's in damascus billets (ground off the teeth). The carbon diffuses and will raise the total C level of a blade with a lot of 15N20 or 1070/1080 in the billet.

A thing about files for knives is working with the teeth. Supposedly they can cause stress risers. It has been recommended to first anneal files, then grind the teeth off, then forge to blade shape. That won't leave you with a neat tooth pattern in the forged-but-not-ground areas of the blade, though.

I've had good luck calling file companies and asking what material their files are made of. The companies are not going to tell you what the exact steel is (chemistry) but more, "generally like...". I've always asked from a heat treating point of view... feel like it was easy for them to tell me to HT it "like W1", or whatever.

There are lots of places to get "known steel", if that's your interest or ability. For one... Kelly Cupples... and ask for a current price list... [email protected]

Mike