I have been involved with and observed all the strata of the knife business for over thirty years now. The eco-green recycling story line for marketing argument is a common one, but in my years of observation it does not bear out in the long run. I have known many makers, many my friends, that grabbed that angle with both hands, but they never really broke out of a certain price bracket with it. Some worked themselves to death trying to make enough knives from scrap to make ends meet. This is not entirely an exaggeration; a very good friend was like the king of recycled steel knives and I watched his health decline and we lost him too soon because of how hard he pushed himself to makes ends meet.

Folks can believe me or not, I only speak from what I have seen, and it appears that there is a stratum in the knife business for that style of knifemaking. I have seen it work well at local gun and knife shows and craft fairs, but it never seems to really break through into large scale success at national level shows with the heavy hitting collectors. I have asked the big collectors if the materials the makers use matters and they have told me in no uncertain terms that is indeed does. I think Ed Caffrey's quotation applies well here ""Nobody Cares What You Know...Until They Know You Care". It is a fact that the buyer is indeed buying the maker, his philosophy and story and the story that seems to sell for the highest dollar is that of a maker that will cut no corners and make no compromises in producing the best possible knife.

On the metallurgical side, chemical analysis is often offered as the solution to the mystery steel problem. But having the chemistry is only one part of the equation, what is the thermal, and physical history of the material? Heat treatment is not a single event. It is a long, interconnected, and interdependent chain of thermal effects. Once again, nobody has to believe me, I'm merely relating what I know from a few years of observation here as well. There could also be hidden physical artifacts accumulated in the lifetime of that steels initial purpose.

The point has also been offered that steel in the past was a better quality than today’s pours, and recycling takes advantage of that. With rising levels of trace elements, I think there could actually be validity to that argument, but I have spent a good deal of time looking at older steel as well, and I can assure you that they made bad stuff in the old days too. All through history there has been a market flooded with low grade materials and a few sources of quality stuff. Today, as in the past, it is up to us to find those manufacturers of the highest quality materials and let our potential customers know about that effort when offering them the best we can do.

Once again, I know very well that to folks who want to use recycled items this entire post will sound like Charlie Brown’s teacher “Woh wah wha wa…” I’m cool with that, this is a topic that I gave up being emotionally invested in a long time ago. But once and a while I try to share some of my experience hoping it can help those who are still undecided, beyond that how another guy makes knives is really none of my business.

But then, let me counter my last post with exceptions where recycled materials are not only justified they very much add to the value of the piece. This is where the materials hold a symbolic, cultural or sentimental value which takes the blade from a mere tool to an artifact that is of higher significance. This can range from somebody wanting a knife made from their grandfather’s file or saw, to steel recovered from the World Trade Center. In this case the functionality of the blade is irrelevant to its value as a symbol of something greater. Other materials in this category would be the bloomery steel I make from Great Lakes ore or iron sand, or meteorite. Both of these materials are inferior to a good bar of steel, but the “wow” factor far outweighs the overall functionality of the tool.

Another thought occurred to me. This thread appears to have been inspired by experiences that veteran makers had with a venue dedicated to beginners. As educators, we all feel the need to help when we can, but maybe experienced professionals have no place in a space expressly created for beginners. This may be a place where hard knocks and learning the hard way is necessary until the participants are ready for the next level, and a comfortable place for those who never will be. You have to at least reach the level where you have an idea of how much you don’t know before you are open to filling that space.

If people come to you they want help and are looking to grow but going to them always comes with the risks of missionary type work. Walking into a village of precontact natives with a bag full of vaccination needles is a great way to end up on a sharpened lodge pole. In a few years, as the village learns more about the world, they will be much more welcoming of your medicine, and may even feel rather foolish and regretful of that whole lodge pole thing.

Kevin, I really appreciate your examples of exceptions to the general rules when choosing materials. There are exceptions, of course, and I myself am willing to use these other materials when the situation warrants and accept the responsibility of researching the project along with how that material will affect it's overall outcome. I'm glad you pointed that out.

Kerri, I'm hoping my reply above does not seem elitist or condescending in attitude. I don't mean it that way at all. The questions from the beginners is not what I have problems with. Questions are good. The problem I have is that are asked in the wrong setting, in my opinion. They are asked to beginners...by beginners. My next problem with asking in that setting, often, is the answers they get by other beginners. Some of the answers are totally reasonable. A LOT are misinformed and downright wrong and only serve to create more confusion.

I save the photos and the questions, as you see from the above examples to share what's in these beginner groups. What I have NOT shown, as of yet, is some of the replies. One recent reply to the question, "Can I make a knife out of this?" was "Go ahead and make it, all you're going to be out is some coal, material, and time." OK, this person who answered may never have made a knife. May not know any more than the asker of the question. But he's quite willing to encourage the guy to spend money and time and a day of his life on something that, from the photo, will not be good steel. It's that misguided thinking that I have the real problem with.

I value my time as much as the materials. It all has a cost. Even when I experiment with new steels or materials, I weigh the cost and decide if this time and materials are worth the expense. Research is expensive but well worth it if there is solid evidence that there will be dividends, whether in data or material gains.

I appreciate you contribution to this subject Kerri.

You are all right. (And extremely helpful)

Brion, that list of what quenchants to what steel is perfect and concise - it's actually hard to find that all so perfectly clear and brief in one place.

Matthew, you are exactly right - there will always be folks who are wrong, but loud, on the internet.

Kevin and Ed - you guys constantly put out a quality flow of the information that we all need, with no BS.

Lin, you are a wealth of information and stop and help anyone who asks, no matter what you need to be doing for yourself.

We can't counter the flood of misinformation - it needs stopped before the flood - please hear me out.

Remember when you made your first knife? Think of someone who sees a hammer-in, a youtube video, Forged in Fire -

They say to their wife or husband, "Hey, I think that would be fun, I would like to try that." So they do a little digging and see that a 4' bar of 1084 (1.5 x .25) , 'the cheapest part of the knife,' is is $57.55 shipped to my house. Then, there is a coal forge to build out of your bbq grill, somehow to find coal, $150 to get some Parks shipped to your house... So, a 'I would like to try that' is already over $200.

To be honest though, they wouldn't have any idea probably to go look for Aldo, or any other steel dealer, they would think Parks is a place you take your kid, they wouldn't know to choose 1084 - that probably just sounds like a house payment number.

And here is what I am after - EVEN IF THEY ALREADY JOINED THE ABS, for 60 bucks!

So, what is the ABS doing? The real problem is not that folks don't want to use the right materials, perfectly executed, and make heirloom blades. No one wakes up and says, 'Dang, I sure hope to be mediocre today!'

They want to be like you all. They want to make a beautiful sword like Matthew, or a gorgeous hamon like Brion. They want to make any of the beautiful knives you all make and teach us about every single day.

Master smiths are amazing. Every time I have called one and asked for help, they have stopped making money, working on their knives, and talked to me until I understood what I needed. I value you folks like gold.

What am I talking about then, what do I want?

I want the ABS to educate - to send out a packet called 'Three good knife steels to start forging with and how to heat treat them' - something brief thing on copier paper even (it doesn't need to be fancy at all) - concise like the information Brion listed in the first post in this thread, something like the information Lin gives if you ever ask him. I want that to get sent out with every new addition to the ABS (and a place on the website to download it if you are a paid up ABS member).

One more thing - I want us to find a way for someone who pays up their dues to buy a little packet with a couple pieces of one of those 3 steels that they can start with. Maybe we could work with a vendor like Aldo to have him create a 'starter kit' with some 8" pieces or something like that.

Immediately then, anyone who joins the ABS is a step ahead, and beyond the wall of BS on the internet. Imagine how better informed they would be and how that would raise the reputation of the ABS even more. Members have access to a couple pieces of 1084 or some such. They have a brief but correct bit of information on what to do with those pieces of steel - heat to forge at, normalizing, hardening, tempering. Can you imagine if a newbie understood normalization, hardening, and tempering!

Those members will be more likely keep doing it (and doing it better) more often than the folks who try to forge a railroad spike out. They will have some success maybe, and they will start buying videos from Kevin. They will start buying books from everyone. They will pay to come to hammer-ins.

Unless we don't help.

Then, they won't start - or will have a terrible experience and go away.

Let's do this easy thing to make even more people know that the ABS is the place you go to get the good clear information.

That is a lot of words for my 2 cents. I sure appreciate it if you read this far. (stop by my place and I'll buy you a bag of chips and a hot dog...)

-Jim Sowers

Jim, I like your idea of the print outs for specific steels and the starter kits. A lot are already familiar with steels and heat treat before even joining the ABS and may not need it but the absolute new folks could probably use that kit. It's these new folks that are unaware of the rabbit holes and false trails that one can take in just starting out. Even if the ABS don't provide this kit, there might be a supplier that could "sponsor" such an idea. Maybe even some of the makers could join forces and pool a fund.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I will share another incident I saw recently on the "hobby" "beginner" page on Facebook.

Again, I am a member because I was added, not because I joined myself. This is why I seriously consider walking away from such groups. The post started with a photo of a non descript chunk of rusted iron or steel and the person saying that he didn't know if it's good steel or not but he was going to make a sword from it, further commenting that it would be good practice.

Two things that give me reason for concern in this situation. First the likely waste of time and resources in pursuing an already difficult project using steel which is most likely not right for it. Second is the responses in comment form and in GIF's and Meme's. To a person, every comment was in favor of the guy proceeding with the sword and then posting the pictures and results. Not one person encouraged the guy to stop and get a better steel and then proceed. And there were a LOT of comments.

Why is this bothering me so much? I can envision the same people cheering a person on a bridge to jump. Is it encouragement? Sort of. But it's not the kind that will really help that person.

So true Lin. I often wonder where these people come from. I have seen a plethora, my big word for the day, of people asking the same basic question. I have this chunk of steel, I don't know what it is, but I am going to make a knife out of it and everyone cheers them on, except for a very few. That very few gets called all kind of things from steel snobs to worse. I try to educate , but very few listen or read. One example from today is a long drawn out discussion on the persons opinion and belief that the heat treat is not an important part for a beginner making a knife. Just amazes me. It is getting close to the point where I will just stop responding, because it is not worth it. However as the ABS mission is education, I feel some need to try and educate the beginners, but it can be like running into a brick wall.

Brion