It is not just facebook , see my letter tot he editor in this months blade.. the internet warriors have all ways and will all ways be a problem, I remember it being an issue all way way back to Anvilfire's board around 20 years ago.

We all need to do our part in this, but I fear it is a fight we will never really win.

MP

Actually, I believe that it is a fight that we have already won, in many ways. I say this from a perspective of a grizzled veteran of such battles going back many years. There was a time when I was the only one on any given site “suggesting” that something called quenching oil may be the best thing to use for quenching. For this I would get pummeled from every direction, and not by naïve newbies but by the old time professional smiths, some with MS stamps. To let you know how bad it was, I was personally attacked and even physically threatened on more than one occasion. But today almost any time I see the subject of quenchants come up there are a good number of people willing to point out the benefits of engineered products to do the job, and utter newbies inquiring as to where to get quench oils as one of their first tools in their shop.

Or perhaps I should say that the battle was almost won in our field as it was, but now bladesmithing is undergoing a pop culturization, and like anything involving pop culture there comes a dumbing down, and I am seeing many old naïve concepts making a comeback. Which brings us to the social media aspect of the conversation. I did my time in the free for all forums, and I am now very selective as to where I will give any of my very limited spare time, this forum is one such place. I am working on a project right now, a couple of years in the making, that I hope to be able to unveil within two weeks, that I hope will bring a new level of information on many of these subjects, so this thread caught my eye with its theme and timing.

I feel I almost have an obligation to mention all the great quenching oils that are on the market these days after all the years I touted the wonders of Park/Heatbath #50. It seemed to bring about the impression that it is the only oil out there that is worth using, when it is not. Knifemakers always want a magic pill, or wonder product, that will be the end all and do everything, and there is an unfortunate attitude about Parks #50 that it is the only oil to get, even to the point of using it with the wrong steels.

It is true that canola is not very stable in continued use, but it is also too unpredictable in the lower range of the cooling curve. I recently had to work with it at another shop and the timing on the lower end was way off from what was expected from a reliable quenchant. A good quench oil quenches very rapidly in the higher range and then decelerates as it approaches Ms. Canola actually seems to accelerate as it approached 500°F.

bladesmithing is undergoing a pop culturization

Therein lies out greatest adversary. We've raised a couple of generations of individuals who's highest priority is "quick and easy", and who are willing to take anything on the internet as fact. The quicker, the easier, and more so, the cheaper it is, the more it's grabbed onto, repeated, and through the repetition, becomes more and more believable to those less knowledgeable.

I've found myself wondering if I'll need my muck boots to wade through all the deep mud that's gona be present at this year's Blade Show.

OK, enough philosophy.

I would have to say that my pet peeve when it comes to misinformation is the issue of "soaking" during heat treat. The attitude I see is "if some is good, then more must be better"....taking it from a necessary/good thing (when used on the steel requiring it), to something that is detrimental. I have a lot of students come through my shop, and more and more I have to waste valuable class hours to demonstrate the differences between a necessary level of "soaking", and too much, just to get their attention on the subject. I often marvel at students who have it in their minds that soaking any steel for 20-30 mins is a good thing...and to find that the majority of them tell me they do it because "XXXXX said to in an internet forum post". I've pretty much quit posting on many forums, simply because we live in an era where repetitive postings on various forums equate to "truth", and like Kevin, I've been everything from shouted down, to threatened for attempting to correct misinformation.

The culmination of this came when I had an individual email me, asking what to do when he purchased his first custom knife, only to find it "will not hold an edge", and "I cannot sharpen it". After investigating, I found the source of the knife touted that they "use only high quality A36 steel for our blades" <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//blink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//blink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> Anybody else see an issue there?

I was asked recently to join a Facebook group directed at "hobby level" bladesmiths with the idea in mind of helping stem all the misinformation..... it's exasperating..... even when attempting to correct misinformation in the gentlest manner possible, it's often met with a barrage of cursing, jeering, and in a couple of cases, ugly emails. That doesn't mean I will ever stop trying to educate.....it just makes it more difficult to keep a good attitude about doing it. I have to admit, sometimes I just wannna throw up my hands and give up....but that's just not in my nature.

This is a great topic to discuss. As an apprentice smith, the internet has been a blessing and a curse at the same time. I would love to see a standardized look up table created and placed on the ABS forum as a sticky that provided guidance on each type of steel we forge with. The table's column headings could be Type of Steel, Forging Temperature Range, Normalization Process, Soak Time, Name of Optimal Quenchants, Tempering Process and Target Rockwell Hardness. I understand that what works for one smith may not work for another. This, however, would at least provide the new smith with a good starting place and a good reference we can point to.

duplicate

I am a member (for the time being) of a Facebook group "for beginners". I was added. I did not join myself. However, I decided to observe and help where I could for the same reason Ed explained.

A lot of it goes as it is intended to go of course. But some is a train wreck of misinformation and rabbit holes. The conversation Brion and I had stems from totally new guys asking questions they should not be asking in the first place. "How do I make a knife out of this?" regardless of what the object might be. That person, for some reason, thinks that there's going to be another busy bladesmith stop what he's doing and "explain" how to convert a backhoe tooth into a knife. I've never made a backhoe tooth into a knife. Most trained bladesmiths would not spend the time making a backhoe tooth into a knife much less feeling comfortable explaining how it's done. There are much better steels, already oriented into bars to spend the time on.

I'm not picking on backhoe teeth. I'm just stating a "for instance". My initial reaction is "why?" Why choose a material that is not designed by industry standards for that specific application to make a knife from? Why not just get a bar of steel that is used specifically for knife blades? OK, that's what I assume most bladesmiths would be thinking. Because our time is precious and we don't want to waste it. That's the same reason I wont spend time explaining how to make a knife from a material where failure is likely.

When these types of questions arise on the web, usually there is a certain type of person or persons in the wings who will cheer that original poster on to "go for it" and post the results, while they have no investment in the project at all. These are the ones who should, in my opinion, sit on their hands and wait for someone who has good advice to actually provide time saving council. These type of uninvited and uninvested people would not be allowed to hang around the classrooms of the ABS or be allowed to troll the ABS forum taking jabs and spreading misinformation. Is that environment where we, as beginners, want to present our questions?

Point is, the best place to go to learn how to make good knives is from those who have made a bunch and who have "done their time" at it. To ask "how to" questions a gathering of "beginners" is risky business. The assumption is that someone who knows more will provide an answer but it often soon becomes a free for all which only serves to muddy the waters. The most practical answer might be there but it's hard to tell from all the mud.

I'm torn between un-joining myself from these type groups or biding my time with the hopes of helping someone on occasion. Either way, I recommend strongly for our new members to approach the social media jungle cautiously and feel free to ask any questions on our American Bladesmith Society forum.

The obsessive nature of the affinity for repurposing scrap steel among those coming from the lay population into the sphere of knifemaking is perhaps the most powerful mindset that I have encountered in all my years of the craft. There is something so visceral about it that I have learned it is easier to steer a bull elephant away from a heard of females during rut than it is to talk sense to somebody bent on using old junk for knife steel.

I don’t understand the intense emotions surrounding the subject but I do understand some of the rationale that initially draws people to it. The general public is awed by the idea of an old file, leaf spring or rototiller tine being transformed into a shiny knife blade, thus it makes it easy for the new knifemaker to capture the imagination of that population. But this is a beginner, or hobbyist level, mindset. And I can guarantee that there will be some who read this and have an immediate visceral reaction to my using those words, but that sort of makes my point. This is more of an emotional pursuit rather than a cold hard look at economics and long term business success.

Over my lifetime of trying to help others avoid common pitfalls, I have learned a few guidelines to keep from making my life too miserable; it feels great to help others but it feels really lousy to take beating for trying.

1. You can lead a horse to water… but if you then try to stand on his head to force his mouth to the life giving liquid you will probably get the snot kicked out of you. Show them a good way and then learn to step back and just enjoy the show of either watching them blossom as maker or being entertained watching them do a three stooges routine that you have washed your hands of.

2. Learn to realize when somebody is at that level where they don’t even know what they don’t know. You were there 20 years ago, and nobody could tell you what you didn’t know without, in your mind, calling you stupid. I have looked deeper into steel than I probably should have for my own sanity, but in doing so I realized how almost everything that I previously saw with my own two eyes, and made total sense to me, could be absolutely wrong. At some point I had to realize that majority of the world didn’t have the same perspective and, until they did, my counter information was the equivalent of calling them and their own two eyes lairs. I learned to simply put it out there and wait to see who eventually explored things enough to start to see some of it.

3. Learn to recognize the signs of a true believer and learn to leave those ones to their own devices. It is not your job to save everybody from themselves. I am now capable of just watching those folks do their thing while smiling on the inside. Where I draw the line, however, is when they decide they have to spread their misery with as many others as possible so they are not as alone in their needless struggles. One of my favorite sayings is “Everybody has the privilege of settling on their own level of ignorance. Nobody has the right to impose it on others.”

When I see a particular batch of lunacy taking traction and spreading to victimize others, I am then still willing to step in and take some heat, because that can hurt us all eventually.

We have come a long way with quench oils, but on the scrap materials well… With whole new avenues of misinformation I think our job as educators is harder than it has ever been.

My post is intended for the new guy/girl that I hope stumbles upon this site. It's not meant for those already here. Ya'll are making a bigger difference than you may think.

Two years ago, I was spending so much time bouncing all over the internet trying to learn how to make knives that I was never in the garage gettin' my hands dirty. It became frustrating and confusing trying to sort through all of the ego and conflicting information out there. It seemed everyone I talked to was an expert but was somehow unavailable to actually show me how to do something, or even provide a pic of their work. I'd been trying to select a steel to start with and was leaning on using 1084. I remember one gentleman in particular that told me 1084 was "junk steel" and that the reason it was cheap to buy is because it wouldn't get hard enough to cut the same cube of butter twice. I realized that I had to get some hands on training and learn from someone, somewhere.....and that google search is when I found the ABS. Since that day this has become the only place that I ask questions or seek feedback. I honestly believe that I can learn something from everyone in the world, but......there is way too much experience and knowledge that frequents this site for the internet warrior to bluff anyone. So, if you've found this site and seek genuine answers from those that can, and actually do back it up, you've found the right place. Enough of the mushy stuff and onto what Mr. Tomberlin wanted to discuss........quenchants.

As an early apprentice I don't have much of anything to add regarding quenching oils or mystery steel. I'm currently using 1084 steel and Parks 50 for everything. This is due to the advice and guidance I've received here. That fellow I mentioned above is still providing all kinds of advice on social media. I've been testing every other blade I make out of 1084 to complete failure and someday I hope to let him know that 1084 will pass his butter test.

In my opinion, there is so much to learn about steel, forging, heat treat, grinding, geometry, guards, handles, sharpening, finish, etc. that its best to learn all you can about one particular steel and quenchant before moving on. That being said, I'm currently collecting some 80CRV2 and 5160 to start messing around with down the road. When that times comes I'll be adding Parks AAA for quenching.

I feel like it's time to get off my soap box now.

I just returned from a two day demo I did in upstate NY. This was for a blacksmith group, and I was heartened to see the three things that I spoke about that seemed to get the most attention were heat treating, some (very) basic metallurgy and the science of forge welding. They were thirsty for solid knowledge from a reliable source.

I was asked about the re-purposed and recycled materials thing and as much as i wanted to give the "it is stupid no don't do that" answer I did not. I have taken to telling folks is this. Reusing materials in the attempt "learn" or practice is counter productive. That is you can not learn form unknown materials, we learn from failing, this is how we do better, with out control of the material how will one know if a blade failed because of something you did or did not door something inherent on the material? reclaiming material is not easier it is far more difficult to do right.

As a case in point I told of a project i did a number of years, ago for Yale university, a new President was taking office the culinary dept asked me to make a knife from the coal scuttle track that feed the old ovens in the cafeteria, along with wood from one of the organs. That was a challenge project I inserted 1095 in the the edge so that could reliably heat treat it, but even so that materiel behaved in ways i have not experienced before or since. that sort or project to my mind is a very different thing than making a hunting knife from the old spring of Daddys truck.

explaining that and the rational behind it, has I feel been far better received than the some what curt re joiner of go buy some 1084 steel is the cheep est part of the knife.

MP

This indeed is an interesting topic, there is so much 'white noise' on the internet one really has to be careful not to get sucked into all the rabbit holes. The best thing I can see for a beginner to do at first is not to ask lots of questions right off the bat, but to do a lot of 'listening' by sifting through all the opinions offered up on any given forum. EDIT: Not trying to say a beginner should not ask questions, that's how we learn. But to 'listen' first and try to ask the right questions of the right folks. The ABS forum here is from what I have seen so far hands down the best place for a beginning bladesmith. There is just so much good solid information to look through, it is a library in itself.

Having said that a couple of comments on what has been started so far.

Quench oils. When I passed my original Journeyman's (& later Mastersmith performance)test years ago quench oils were basically unknown for me, this internet thing wasn't around either. It was just getting beyond city limits and I lived in the country! So back then I used new motor oil (30W)for quenching. The steels I used were 5160, O1 and after meeting and talking with Al Pendray at the last Blade Show in Knoxville I started using 52100. I played around with the variables, soak time, forge temp etc, not having a pyrometer I learned to 'read' the color ranges. I pre heated the motor oil right before quenching the blades and I cannot remember having a blade crack in the quench. Returning to bladesmithing I would never us motor oil again, proper quench oil is by far the only way to go. I learned that in other areas along the road. I will be ordering some very quickly as I am about caught up with a long list of home improvements and will have time to devote to bladesmithing once again.

Steels, why bother with anything but the right stuff? I also have never understood the fascination with novelty steels. Railroad spike knives come to mind, a novel look but what good is it? If a knife does not function, it matters not how pretty it is. Besides, bladesmithing can be hot and hard enough as it is, why make it tougher by trying to hammer down the axle and bumper off of a 58 Edsel.

This is an example of the type of question that, if asked here on the ABS forum, would be met with gentle guidance away from unknown materials. The question asked is: "What is it and what should I do with it?" Of course it pertains to making a knife. But still, it's a broad question and a gathering of beginners is not the best place to get the apparent needed direction.

Untitled by Lin Rhea

This is not to speak disparaging about beginner's questions. It's more a matter of observing the lack of foundation that some have as beginners.

I realize this thread is >30 days old- and yes... I am a newer member here. I appreciate the perspectives and the viewpoints here as well. Please bear with me for a long post.

Like another poster on this thread- one reason I am "in" the ABS is to get solid information- another is to gain insight into the art/craft/business as well and fellowship with like minded (albeit way more skilled) folks than where I am at now. To me it is fun, but it also has to be able to stand on its own cash-flow wise in order to grow (this is just how I run my hobbies- they have to pay for themselves not drain the family budget).

Lin and Kevin and other posters have both brought up valid points- each with a metric ton of merit along with other criticisms based in experience in dealing with the herd of mass media/social media following folks.

My point in writing is to say I agree with the majority but want to propose that each reader examine not just the criticism, but the validity in using social media as a bit of a crucible to refine your own craft and mindset about this craft. No one person has all the right (or wrong) answers- but we all serve the craft and grow through our collective experiences with it, from it, and by doing it.

That being said- it all boils down to 3 points for me- LCD, Due Diligence, target market for me. I am not trying to just vilify or validate previous points- please allow me to explain.

1- LCD- Least Common Denominator... just like in math class- its the same with people. Its the Lowest COMMON point in a social group at which each person can be the same. I belong to several social media sites for blade/knife/tool makers and use it as a forum for ideas- rarely to share info. Simply by wading into the pool of the media you are taken to the lowest point as well- your voice is drowned out by those who are loudest, rudest and in many cases the most wrong in information. Public opinion is rarely right, and facts are not welcomed by those with emotion.

This being said- the LCD are GREAT idea generators and you will see trends/fads/interesting applications and directions for products first by watching the herd. But it is a tool, just that- a tool.

2- Due Diligence: don't watch the crowd- watch the stragglers, the quiet folks, the kid who lingers at the edge of the booth and silently examines with his eyes the things going on. They are out there- you just have to be patient. I was one of them. I did my due diligence- I even had a "knife-maker" near me teach me a few things- I found his style did not fit my learning, and I learned more about what I did NOT want to do for a customer than what I wanted to accomplish in knives... and made a conscious choice to pursue a different direction, and wound up here. Yours is a craft, and an art. That is not a widely held belief system anymore among the buy-it-all-off-a-boat from somewhere else crowd/generation.

Why is that long winded point in there? Because- I have reached out to a couple of folks privately off list from the social media and found that OUTSIDE the LCD mentality they were serious about learning... You know who they are- the guy who INVESTS in equipment and resources. Guys and gals, Folks and Mentors- stay the course- they are out there, and will seek you out as well. Due diligence is not just curiosity- it is in making sure you are on target and not short-changing your own learning process

3- Target Market: simply put- "NO SELLING TO THE HERD" Feedback is great- but I do not put my items out there for the bullys. I only do this as a hobby. Im not out to win over another knife maker/metal worker... I am out there to refine my viewpoint and perspective in order to know how to sell to my personal target markets. This point seems like a no-brainer- but yet again and again others try to one-up or out-do others in social media- and thus- create conflict... the people in your user group are not customers! They are your competition!

Kevin brought up a point:

|quoted:

The obsessive nature of the affinity for repurposing scrap steel among those coming from the lay population into the sphere of knifemaking is perhaps the most powerful mindset that I have encountered in all my years of the craft. There is something so visceral about it that I have learned it is easier to steer a bull elephant away from a heard of females during rut than it is to talk sense to somebody bent on using old junk for knife steel.

I don’t understand the intense emotions surrounding the subject but I do understand some of the rationale that initially draws people to it. The general public is awed by the idea of an old file, leaf spring or rototiller tine being transformed into a shiny knife blade, thus it makes it easy for the new knifemaker to capture the imagination of that population. But this is a beginner, or hobbyist level, mindset. And I can guarantee that there will be some who read this and have an immediate visceral reaction to my using those words, but that sort of makes my point. This is more of an emotional pursuit rather than a cold hard look at economics and long term business success.

And I will agree to disagree.

When you apply Due Diligence (and communication)... those personal items have a larger market share than an initial sale. Here is my caveat- I have used one old sawmill blade as blade steel/decor piece. I sent in a sample for OES testing (Optical Emmission Spectrography) so I knew precisely the steel I was working with. (Here is my due diligence- not guessing at the steel) This does direct my heat treat to target that steel profile. I will be doing this again as it was a bigger success than anticipated. And the Upcycle-Recycle was a large selling point.

The "Going Green" and "Eco-Friendly" curve has been on the market horizon for many years, and just like some things- it may be a fad, but with the current economic forecast- it may have staying power as well. For a newer maker and one coming up in this newer and greener business model- you would be well-served to embrace it into your planning. I have been through my local SBA and my local SCORE chapters for startups and "going green" is a strong focus no matter what your widget/industry/service is.

I am not saying it is any sort of end-all-be all. I have bought steel from Aldo and Sheffield as well as Admiral... but a good old fashioned 2-man crosscut has a "hook" and a "story" to add to the artistic sale of a blade. Providing you spend the time/$$$ to know your steel. (There is the due diligence again)

There are multiple threads that address the selling of a blade is as much art as it is knife, but in all those threads- the common theme is that the consumer is NOT just buying a knife- they are buying the maker, his ethos, and principles as well. Going Green is a larger selling point for some. That being said- art vs steel- its all a reverse engineering process. I would not make an infantryman's knife from unknown steel- but a kitchen knife with an OES report to target a heat treat for functionality- sure.

Disclaimer: I did not heat treat these blades nor forge these blades (That is why I am here- to learn)... they were stock removal and sent out for HT. The client was aware that the finished blade would be an experiment from the beginning. Once again- due diligence and communication/contract.

Im excited to be allowed to participate and contribute- as well as listen. I greatly respect all the opinions here.

Folks- be safe and as the weekend looms- I pray yours is fun and filled with family and life. Im out in the garden where the beans are staging a revolt and storming the fence!

Kerri,

From the way you talk I can see that you are not one of the ones who would just grab up something and "make a knife" without considering several qualifying factors. That is admirable on yours and the part of anyone else who might give due diligence, as you put it. But I would point out that giving due diligence or, rather NOT giving due diligence is more in line with what is a real hindrance when choosing materials for blades. You obviously spent time and resources to make sure for yourself that your supply of steel would be suitable and narrow your process so it could be repeatable. Again, that is admirable.

There are multiple threads that address the selling of a blade is as much art as it is knife, but in all those threads- the common theme is that the consumer is NOT just buying a knife- they are buying the maker, his ethos, and principles as well.

Your quote says a lot and shares insight as to how the buyers often feel toward the makers. Our efforts here to provide cautionary opinions and direction is to assist those who are not doing their homework (due diligence). We would want each of these new makers to use sound principles, build his ethos, and thus provide the buyer with a solid, confidence inspiring combination of maker and product. No one could rightly be critical of such a maker or any individual for that matter with those guiding principles.

The lowest common denominator in social settings is not who I want to associate with. Watch out for.., keep one eye on..., yes, of course. But follow and encourage them in their current misinformed course? No. I'll admit you can indeed learn a lot though by "watching the herd" as it were.

I'll leave this here as another example where there really should be no need for an explanation as to why some may not reply to such questions.

Totally agree Lin- just a different viewpoint to let you and the others know as Matt had posted- your efforts are seen/heard and in my case were solid and very welcome as an aside to the white noise as he put it.

I respect and appreciate what I have seen, read and experienced so far here.

Kerri