|quoted:

The Catch-22 here is that we want to engage those who are not participating, but how do we reach them if they are not participating? So I think the one thing we could focus on is that outreach, that way the people who are here and participating have a way of making that connection. From my experience in moderating, administering and participating in chat forums one thing that gets results is being mentioned and referenced elsewhere. If you have gotten great info here how often have you made a point of mentioning where you got that info? How often do you see a question that you got answered here and say “hey, you should check out this thread at the ABS forum.”

You see talking about how valuable this forum is while on this forum is only so much patting ourselves on the back, but praising this forum out there spreads the word. But more importantly, when people hear all kinds of chatter about a place they are not visiting they get an idea of how much they are missing by not being a part of it. Folks won’t know that this is the go-to site for bladesmithing information unless they hear it mentioned, and they won’t believe it is the go-to site for bladesmithing information unless they hear it everywhere they go.

All good points Kevin. So, let's talk about them.

As for reaching those ABS members who are not participating, we all get the same email newsletter, yes? The newsletter always has info on the forum activity, so we are reaching out to our members, and they still stay away, or go elsewhere. Why is that? Some folks simply don't "do" on line forums, I get that. Others are "too busy", "have other involvements", or some other reason and you will never get them to participate. There are some very accomplished ABS smiths who only use this site for self-promotion and add no substantive content. Sure they post photos in their gallery, or Knife Critiques or Tailgate Sales forums, but never do they think to put up a WIP or try and answer questions in the Apprentice Corner, or any other forum. How do we get those guys to start really participating?

I think you make a good suggestion about chatting up this forum on other forums and trying to direct people here for information, but how effective is that going to be when most of them cannot participate because they are not ABS members? Sure they can come here and read the posts, but they cannot add anything or even ask questions, let alone provide any valuable content. Even if they are an ABS member, the registration process can take a while. Other forum sites have a pretty fast registration process, Fill in the data form, click submit, check your email, click the link and presto! you are posting on the forum.

So we find ourselves back to the same idea. Is it time to open forum membership to anyone and make the registration process fast and simple, or are we going to leave it a members only forum? If you really want to increase participation on this forum, you have to first start removing the restrictions that already exist. Maybe offering a "Guest" sign in?

never do they think to put up a WIP or try and answer questions in the Apprentice Corner, or any other forum. How do we get those guys to start really participating?

That particular line caught my attention. Personally, I think the reason that many of "those folks" don't "help" is actually two fold.... 1. A lot of them are makers who came up in what I call "the dark years"....that time in knifemaking when everything about knifemaking was a "secret" and nobody shared anything. Sadly, there is a segement of our membership that still clings to that old notiion of "I had to learn it the hard way....and so should you". I personally experienced it when I first started. Back then calling a Bladesmith to ask a question meant running the risk of being hung up on, or even cursed at.(Yep, that happened a couple of times) Many with that attitude still exist within our ranks. What I find interesting is that one of those individual who hung up on me when I was just starting out, was also the same individual that leaned in close, and whispered, "We've been waiting for you." the day I achieved my MS stamp. In short, they cling to the old ways, but simply do not realize that doing so lessens their value, and in many cases causes unfair judgement of the ABS as a whole. The only way to change that attitude is to let them be left behind, until they realize what they are missing.....then they MIGHT get with the program.

2.) Technophobia..... I'm amazed at how many within the ABS simply refuse to step into the modern age of technology. Whether its having too much pride to ask for help, or simply thinking they can't do it.

I'm gona bite my tongue on the rest of what I planned to say, but most of us here know exactly what it will take to get the ABS moving into the modern age, and until that happens, it will be up to a small percentage of us with enough forward thinking to keep things going when it comes to utilizing technology.

the one thing I really like about this forum is the fact that every one her e is a "real" person. nothing is said here that would not be said in person. that is in part due to the moderators, but also due to the fact the every one here is a member of the ABS they have skin in the game. I think adding a guest sign in would wreck that trolling,flaming and the sort of issues we see on other forums would come to be an issue here.

Exactly Matthew!

In view of some of the reply posts above some background on the development of our Forum may be helpful. In the Fall of 2008 I was approached to be on the ABS Board of Directors and the new Webmaster. I accepted the assignment and was voted on the Board. The website development project had been underway for a year at that time but when Sally (a retired Information Technology Senior Systems Analyst) and I tested it absolutely nothing worked. We then worked full time for about 18 months with the developer (Ciplex) to properly define the system, incorporate and code the rules, write the text, and create an application that would in effect automate the ABS membership system.

During this timeframe, I felt that we needed a better way for our members to communicate and ask and receive advice. I checked out many knife forums online and was frankly shocked at the the outrageous behavior of some individuals using names like the Avenging Sword to anonymously demean and criticize others. I then sought the advice of Master Smith Don Fogg who made me a temporary administrator on his "Bladesmith's Forum" from Invision Power so I could see and learn how his forum functioned. I then personally purchased our forum from Invision Power and began configuring it and setting up the rules on the same non publc server where the ABS website was being developed and tested.

There was opposition and concern by many ABS Board members about even having an ABS Forum because of the behavior that they observed on other knife forums. I addressed their concerns by creating a forum where only ABS members could post but the public could view all areas of our Forum except the "Members Only" area. I configured a registration process requiring ABS members to use their real name, email address in our records, and rating. I also set up a test question and Catcha to keep out automated bots. Until recent months I had to approve every single registration (Cindy is now performing this task). This registration process has kept out spammers, hackers, and other harmful elements. I have had as many as 30 attempted forum registrations in a single day by spammers that I have deleted before they could join our forum and do any damage. Another example is that in spite of my posted warnings many members display their full date of birth on their profile which is only visible to our members. If just anyone could join the information in their profiles could be used by identity thieves. I could cite many more examples but I hope that you see my point. In addition, I can say that in all these years there have not been any incidents of "bad behavior" by any of our ABS members.

In regard to images, in the beginning I checked other forums when I configured ours and used their specs as a guideline to get us started. Technology changes constantly which is why I have consulted our forum provider Invision Power, professional photographers, and other informed sources to reexamine our image posting rules. I am in the process of discussing increases to our image posting rules with our Moderating Team. I will announce the new image posting rules soon.

I hope that this reply explains the development of the ABS Forum and the reasoning for our policies. I have many ideas for expanding our internet technology services beyond our very successful ABS YouTube Channel and our Forum but I need more participation by our members. The ABS members that are reading this are my target audience and there are many advances that we can make.

We are truly fortunate to have a very talented and dedicated Moderating Team of Steve Culver, Brion Tomberlin, Karl B. Andersen, Ed Caffrey, Lin Rhea, and Kevin Cashen who work every day as volunteers to answer your questions. They answer the vast majority of technical questions on our Forum. I am hoping that we can attract and encourage more Master Smiths, Journeyman Smiths, and Apprentice Smith members to join us on your ABS Forum to participate in our Mission of Education.

In case you ever wondered, I have read every single post on this Forum since the day we went online.

Thank you Dan.

Thank you Dan. All this would not have been possible without the hard work, time, and money you and Sally put in. I agree, we do not need the drama that occurs in other forums. I am not sure how we can get more participation. We have tried different things, but so far not much luck. We cannot force participation, but maybe some gentle coercion. I think we need to hear more ideas on ways to encourage participation from our membership. Their is the photo issue, but I do not see that as being that big of a roadblock. I see more of a lack of want to. I check the forum every morning and every evening, and if there is a new question that I have knowledge of, I will do my best to answer. It does not take that long. Maybe we can get more members to do that, hope so. So lets hear some ideas on how to do that.

Thanks again Dan, and thank you everyone for the replies so far.

Brion

Thanks Dan for the history on the forum and the reasoning behind the policies, it does help understand how we got where we are. I personally do not doubt the dedication and level of commitment put forth by those people who established and maintain this site. So, it seems to me that the intention of the forum is for ABS members to share information, and create a social network amongst themselves. OK, let's work around that foundation. The challenge it appears is how to grow the participation from our membership and make this forum a truly vital and vibrant part of our organization. I am going to tell a short story (rather a condensed version) of a similar challenge I faced in another organization I used to belong to.

That organization was a volunteer search and rescue team (SAR) that provided its services to the county sheriff's office here in Maricopa County. I spent 7 years as a volunteer on that team, starting out as a "booter" (BTR-basic training recruit)and eventually worked my way up through the ranks as a training instructor, Rescue Technician (the equivalent of JS in SAR terms), ran for a board member office, and eventually became the president of the corporation (it was a 501-3C non-profit). This team faced many of the same challenges we face in the ABS and this forum. We had plenty of team members who were available for rescues, although many of them cherry picked which ones they would respond to, but very few people who would volunteer time to do all of the admin work that the organization required. There was always a core group of folks who planned the training, fundraising events, volunteered to hold interviews and teach the recruits, etc. In short, the bulk of the members were there to be rescuers and not to ensure the continued growth and success of the organization. I sat down with several of the elder members to discuss this and found that this was something that had always been a topic for discussion and had stymied presidents for decades.

You can try to coerce people to participate more, but reluctant participation is little better than none and it doesn't last very long. At the end of the day, you are only going to get participation from people who want to participate. If you want to encourage our members to come to the forum and start participating (in hopes that they will enjoy it and continue), why not create a forum account for each person in a group of folks that you would like to see here that currently are not registered and email them the log-in information. Basically say to them "look, we want you to give this a try. Here is your account and a temporary password. Change the password the first time you log in and give it a try." See if that works.

I visit the forum daily yet only post infrequently. My questions have been answered quickly and have been extremely helpful. I have run a website before and know how much work it is to keep it up. Dan put a lot of thought into the forum and most of what he discribed are the same processes we put in place. The scammers and porn posters are a real problem and putting up a processes to approval all new members is a daily job to screen through the daily registrations.

I like the idea to send a post to the members with a temporary PW to encourage membership participation. We typically sent emails about every 6 months to try to bring members back and participate in a planned activity. This really worked but like anything you have to keep their interest.

I am an Apprentice Smith and make knives on the weekend and some nights. I only recently got a gas forge and have been making stock removal knives so I have a lot to learn. With the Heat here in Houston, its hard to spend a lot of time around a forge when the temps are 100 F. I am doing my own heat treating with my forge though. Once the fall comes I will have a lot of questions for the masses. I have only forged one knife and that was with a local blade smith that gave me instruction. I will try to be more active.

Scott

This is a very productive discussion and I want thank everyone who is participating for their thoughtful remarks and ideas.

As a result of our discussions, I made changes on the Admin side today to the Global Upload Limit for images from the default setting of 500k to Unlimited for all ABS Forum members.

In addition, I have completed and sent the ABS Forum Moderators the results of my research on image size limits with my recommendations.

|quoted:

the one thing I really like about this forum is the fact that every one her e is a "real" person. nothing is said here that would not be said in person. that is in part due to the moderators, but also due to the fact the every one here is a member of the ABS they have skin in the game. I think adding a guest sign in would wreck that trolling,flaming and the sort of issues we see on other forums would come to be an issue here.

I always thought that was why we had an "ignore this user" button. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

I'll be serious for a moment, (not that the ignore feature isn't serious) and discuss this, because it is a real concern for many people, not least of whom, are the moderators. The moderators end up tasked with the odorous job of editing or removing unwanted posts, chastising flamers, squashing spammers, etc. The other members have to take some of that weight off of the moderation team and ignore such tripe and not give it the dignity of a response. Responding in any way to unwanted posts is encouragement. I have belonged to quite a number of online forums of one sort or another over the years, not just metal working ones either. Ignored users usually disappear quickly. Unwanted users is a price paid for increased forum membership and abundant conversation. The cost/benefit ratio has to be considered, tried, evaluated, and reconsidered again as any business decision or policy should be. Even if a change to that policy is temporary, or on a trial basis.

So this just hit me like a brick. How popular is this idea, and more importantly, how difficult is it to achieve?

The Guest Registration.

A visitor to our forum likes what they see and wants to participate, so they click on register and are given a choice: ABS membership or guest. They choose Guest Registration. They see this message:

Terms of guest membership.

Comply with rules and regulations (other standard stuff)

Guest Registrations are temporary and last for a maximum of X calendar days (I suggest somewhere between 60-100)after which they expire and are not renewable without purchasing an ABS membership.

Agree to Terms? Y/N (yes takes you to....)

Guest Registration page:

Provide your name: Last name, First Name

Provide your email address: (your log-in info and all correspondence is sent here)

Choose a password:

An email is sent to the address provided with a link to activate the Guest account. The clock starts ticking. When the account expires, an email is sent to the address with an invite to renew by becoming an ABS member. (maybe we could offer a "Forum Use Only" membership that gives forum access and puts you on our email newsletter list but doesn't count toward membership time for JS testing, discounted admission to ABS events, etc. and certainly you don't get the printed ABS magazine!)

Any attempt to create a new Guest registration with either the same name or email address will be rejected. Of course you may have a few people who are willing to create a new alias and email account every two months, but eventually we will notice it and they can be banned.

What do you guys think?

Matthew Parkinson had it right. As the website was being developed, there was a concern among the ABS Board members that a forum would generate the same problems we see in other forums - anonymous posters who misbehave repeatedly, flaming others and just being obnoxious. A greater concern was the anonymous poster who, having no knowledge or experience whatsoever about the subject at hand will post "advice" to those requesting information.

The site was designed to be the go-to place for information on the forged blade. We continue to build, and we rely on our members to share information. Misinformation tendered out of ignorance or just plain malevolence will go a long way toward wrecking that goal. For this reason, our forum requires a true first and last name. Identification is normally pretty simple, as most use credit information to buy membership in the ABS. Opening the site up to non-members would be considerably more difficult. A fictitious name submitted by a forum member would in effect produce the same scenario I've just described. I always promote the forum by making the point that a member who has a need for information can go to our site and be assured that he 9or she will get that information from a bonafide Journeyman and/or Master Bladesmith, and probably several...not the well-meaning non-maker or the not-so well-meaning skulker who enjoys a little confusion.

Add this to the sheer amount of information provided in previous posts, and we have a sold, dynamic knowledge base. Yes, we want to get the message out, but we don't have to do it at the expense of credibility.

I think, however, that the original question asked in this thread was a question regarding the slow or infrequent use of this forum by our members. More involvement by our membership would be great! I think a lot of the newer members might hesitate to post a question, but then I think a lot of their questions are already addressed by previous posts. If we could increase participation by our members, I believe we would both retain more members, and our members would attract others through their enthusiasm.

More ideas?

I think of this forum in a similar way as I view a classroom. We have instructors and we have students. A good instructor does not always wait for questions to teach. Its quite possible that some students dont know what questions to ask. I'd venture to say this would be the case more often than not. But a good teacher will prompt questions and lead the students in the direction they need to be going.

But a teacher needs tools available such as drawings, power points, photos, etc. These tools will save the teacher a lot of leg work and drive home the point better than words. These tools also are not fraught with forgetfulness. They can be referred to over and over.

It is the same with our photos and videos. I find that if I show a photo of a project it prompts questions. One thing leads to another and you have a good conversation that has helped someone... including the instructor.

I joined in 2011 and started on the forum the minute I was approved. In my short time on here I have yet to see a post or reply that was offensive or inappropriate to the issues. The main reason is as Matthew stated WE have an interest in the forum and group.

I understand the need to grow our participation of member on the forum but do not really see clearly how this can be done. I know the benefits of the forum.

I want to Thank Dan for the photo storage upgrade.

Now based on what has been suggested is their a plan or idea that can be used to increase member's participation? I for one am excited about the images not having to be removed from the posts. It will make our older posts a true resource in the future. On another forum I'm on they have an index post base on subject that links to specific topics. How about adding a couple of additional topics like "Tutorials" and "WIP" to further classify those topics and possibly a topic that lists videos as they referenced when added. I know they are posted as they come available now but, this would put them in a group that would be easier to reference.

Good ideas George.

We already have a Work in Progress (WIP) sub forum and the Tutorial sub forum is a good idea. I will talk to our Admin/Moderators about it. Since this Topic of the Month was posted there has been a lot of discussion among the Admin/Moderators looking for ways to increase member participation and ideas to improve the ABS Forum. Stay tuned!

Yesterday, I consolidated some sub forums and created a Show and Tell sub forum to try and encourage members to post and tell about their work. Members also have the option to ask for a constructive critique of their work or ask for advice.