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The other area that seems to be quite vacant is using a press vs anvil. I think it was briefly brought up early in but not much on that subject was addressed with anvils being the prime target.

My two cents: In the old days there were aprentice smiths that would do the work of the press for the master. If I had a press I would have no problem using it to reach my final goal. Back then it was a team effort to bring a product to market. Be it wagon wheels, watches, or knife blades. We are trying to do the job of at three to six different people. Using the best equipment is not cheating just like it wasnt cheating to use three strapping young men as strikers. If the master smith was holding the steel and directing the strikers, the master smith was the person who was owed the credit for making the item. Ultimately it was him who had to answer to the customer if his product failed and it is the same with us...If I have a knife that makes it to a customer and the blade won't hold an edge or is too thick I can't and wouldn't tell them that it is my sorry grinders falt. I still forge the blade by hand. Also most masters do as well unless there is a certain pattern they are trying to preserve in the steel. If possible I believe all parties present would prefer it that way.

I am not trying to be coarse. I have rolled this thread over several times and I feel that using a milling machine vs files and a bunch of little holes drilled through my guard the milling machine would win in precision and speed. The final fit is done by hand. Hand being the Operative word. If I could press the blade compleately to the final shape before grinding and then clamp the blade into some sort of machine that would grind precision bevels then roll through a machine that put the handle on for me and then I do a quality inspection at the end I believe I would just stamp (Stainless (place country of choosing here)) on the recasso instead of puting my name. I must forge because I can forge. If I used a trip hammer or a press to make the bevels in my blade I have to hold the hot steel in my tongs that are in my HANDS and direct the tools to do it correctly.

Saying all that.

Thank you to all the Masters and the Journeymen that don't mind passing along their experiences and pitfalls so that this craft doesn't die.

It took me a good week to even consider touching this topic as it has put me in the center of my share controversies, but that has allowed me to gain a good perspective on the technology thing and how I believe the controversy has distracted many from the real issue.

From ancient times to the present everything eventually changes except one essential tool. Our equipment has evolved from hammer wielding apprentices, to water power, to hydraulic presses. Our forges have went from charcoal, to coal to LP gas. And even our steel has went from the simplest caburized iron to complex alloys that would leave Weyland scratching his head. At any time in these centuries you could interchange our tools and the smiths would have welcomed any advantage he could get or you could take any convenience away from them so long as they still possessed the single most essential tool- knowledge!

Some people may describe me as that guy who uses salt baths and microscopes to make knives; nothing could be more removed from reality. We all use tools to make knives but any of those tools can be substituted except one- knowledge; it is our most valuable tool for which there is no substitute. My “high tech” equipment are merely tools I use to accumulate knowledge, with that knowledge I program my salt baths one day and then make steel in a charcoal fired clay smelter from ore I personally dug from the ground. Take my whole shop, and all of my other tools, from me and I can still make knives using that one essential tool. I respect many smiths that have decided to forego any “modern” equipment and still obviously make wonderful knives using their knowledge, but I am only dismayed and saddened for any smith who spurns knowledge, he has robbed himself of the one tool we must have to excel in our craft. The ABS could be a warehouse full of power hammers, presses, salt baths, ovens, anvils and forges and still do little to preserve and grow the art of bladesmithing, but we chose instead to focus on the one tool that is so critical it renders all the others a moot point.

So I have been pondering this topic this week. I wanted to ask a few things here and see where it goes. By using presses and power hammers does that not take away from the whole experience and effect that we are preserving? Yet bringing industrial equipment into the picture brings in its own experience and effects.

So having said that I have been wondering, of all those smiths who have power hammers and/or presses along with anvils, how often do they NOT use them and use just the anvil? I am often reminded about the path of least resistance is sometimes *not* the best route to take.

I'm working on a large bowie (12 inch blade) I forged entirely by hand from 1 1/8 round stock in a coal forge. Because it's forged by hand does not make it better, but it makes it more interesting. To some eyes, special. It's knowing that I can do that and not forgoing such effort that makes a forged knife more attractive, at least, to me.

I often ponder a time when my Father, Grandfather, and I might work side by side, all healthy and strong with no visible age difference. In a similar way, if I could work beside blacksmiths and bladesmiths of days gone by and compare skill sets and knowledge, would I be able to share worthwhile things? What can I learn from them and their perspective of metallurgy? How did they keep the quality of their work at a high level with limited technology? Where and from whom did they learn?

In some way, the fact that I can and am willing to forge keeps me connected with them. Someday....., who knows?

Dan and Lin, I agree with the comparison with bladesmiths and traditional bow hunters. I have contemplated this for a while since I have always been drawn to "old school" methods of doing things. I think this is why the Boy Scouts was such a good fit for me. I have met kindred spirits among traditional archers and bowyers, bladesmiths, decoy carvers, reenactors, buckskinners, fly fishermen and bird hunters. These sporting facets share the spirit of preserving and perpetuating a specific history and culture. As Dan pointed out with traditional archers, these pursuits require a deeper dedication which , in turn, brings greater reward. Within each of the pursuits I mention above, there are similar struggles with maintaining the spirit of the pursuit and newer technologies. Are you a fly rod maker if you assemble the components for a graphite rod or are you only a fly rod maker when you build a bamboo rod? Are you a decoy carver if you only use hand tools or are power carvers and bandsaws allowed?

I believe it boils down to man's need for a sense of pride in what her or she does. Not everyone has the interest to work hard within a sporting pursuit and even fewer have the drive to further define their interests and follow a path to mastery. For those few of us who do take our interests to such a high degree, we inevitably do it for the greater reward of pride in our accomplishments.

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Dan and Lin, I agree with the comparison with bladesmiths and traditional bow hunters. I have contemplated this for a while since I have always been drawn to "old school" methods of doing things. I think this is why the Boy Scouts was such a good fit for me. I have met kindred spirits among traditional archers and bowyers, bladesmiths, decoy carvers, reenactors, buckskinners, fly fishermen and bird hunters. These sporting facets share the spirit of preserving and perpetuating a specific history and culture. As Dan pointed out with traditional archers, these pursuits require a deeper dedication which , in turn, brings greater reward. Within each of the pursuits I mention above, there are similar struggles with maintaining the spirit of the pursuit and newer technologies. Are you a fly rod maker if you assemble the components for a graphite rod or are you only a fly rod maker when you build a bamboo rod? Are you a decoy carver if you only use hand tools or are power carvers and bandsaws allowed?

I believe it boils down to man's need for a sense of pride in what her or she does. Not everyone has the interest to work hard within a sporting pursuit and even fewer have the drive to further define their interests and follow a path to mastery. For those few of us who do take our interests to such a high degree, we inevitably do it for the greater reward of pride in our accomplishments.

I guess I want to reinforce the reasons I started this post. It was to get bladesmiths to share their views on who we are when we describe ourselves as bladesmiths. It was triggered by discussions of technology at the Bladeshow and technology seemed to be a way of framing a possible conflict in order to have people share their views on who we are. I am not saying that technology (high tech tools, new steels, etc.) conflicts with being a bladesmith but it could. It at least asks us to talk about what makes us unique and posts to this have been thoughtful and valuable. I still believe the collective "we" rather than any one of us is what is important. Do we share some common sense of what makes us different from just someone who makes knives.

As a group or organization I think Kevin is correct in that we share and use knowledge. The sharing is very important to me since it is so vital in this organization to make us a community. It is also what will keep us vital and leaders in the knife community.

I also think it is more than that also. I think it is about tradition. Every bladesmith need not always forge blades in a certain way using a certain level of technology. However, I believe that every bladesmith should be able to take heat and steel and hammer to shape a blade and then heat treat it to a desired purpose or outcome. That is not to say that bladesmiths should not be able to do much more than that. I go round in round in my head trying to distill skill sets to the minimum and then round and round to some of the most advanced skill sets being used for high end knives. I am unable to settle on place where all of us will be comfortable. However, I can find comfort in knowing that we preserve a tradition and that within that tradition are some basic skill sets that still have relevance today with all the technology and high tech tools available.

What makes us bladesmiths and as a group what defines us. I am very comfortable with the sharing of knowledge and very comfortable with knowing that within that rest our history and the preservation of certain relevant skill sets.

Dan

I would have a difficult time adding anything of value to this thread.

I'm not entirely certain how to jump onto this moving train!

I know that lately, when I walk into my shop - it's air conditioned.

Without all the modern conveniences of electricity, propane, formulated quench oils, carbide drill bits, digital heat treating ovens,UPS!, etc., I'd have a hard time making a knife.

I could. And I have, but I've got fish to catch, too.

I do know that if you're having a difficult time FORGING something, don't go looking for a bladesmith - look for a BLACKSMITH! A blacksmith will use every imaginable tool and gadget to accomplish his task of moving a piece of steel where he wants it to go.

Does he only use his hammer? Heck no.

Walk into a blacksmtih shop and you'll discover forging items and tricks that would be the envy of every bladesmith on this board.

I am constantly looking for ANY and all avenues that assist me in making a knife. And I turn down few.

Quite honestly, I have no desire to emulate the knife maker of 1780. At least not the knife maker that WE! have envisioned.

In fact, if we're honest with ourselves - and I'll bet $1.75 on this - the knife maker of 1780 was making knives alright, but each and every day he was also on the lookout for anything he could use to make his task more efficient and his product better.

Any new tool, any new technique, any new material, any new method, etc. that pushed him and his knives forward so as to be able to promote the latest and greatest of knives.

I am personally on the constant drive to acquire and use ANYTHING that I feel puts a more valuable and functional knife in the hands of my customers.

I am most definitely a "bladesmith".

I am a Bladesmith of the 21st century.

There is a "romanticism" that is linked to bladesmithing. I'll admit that's part of what forging is about, for me. I want to draw inspiration from the old ways and give people a taste of history in a brand spanking new object. To my way of thinking, involving and evoking a variety of emotions in what you create is that critical element that elevates it to an art form. I also believe that technology, of itself, is just a means to an end.

I have avoided commenting on this thread as it is so easy to step on toes with topics like this. I do believe that there is a certain amount of romance to doing it in a way that was done before modern technology. There is also a certain level of satisfaction to building something without the aid of modern conveniences. I will occasionally build a stock removal blade but don't receive the same satisfaction as doing it the way that it has been done over the years. It seems that when forging I often reflect on the old smith that apprendiced me years ago and that is always a pleasant memory.

Gary