Hi Joseph,

Well for me I prefer the forging method over stock removal. One of the major reasons is that I am not limited by the size of the material that I start out with or with the design of the knife that I want to make. I get great satisfaction forging a blade in the correct manner and doing the normalising, annealing, quenching and tempering process, rather than cutting it out grinding it and probably sending it out for heat treat as a lot stock removealists do. Try and do a bend test with S30V ( I have not done it, but I would think that you would have a big fail right there ) There is a hell of a lot more to learn and try to master in forging a blade than stock removal. Thats it major appeal to me and to a whole bunch of savy knife buyers.

Cheers Keith

There are "bad forgers" and I am probably one of them. Anytime a bladesmith thinks he is a good forger, I suggest he spend some time watching a really good blacksmith in order to get some perspective in humility. All the same I wouldn't make a knife any other way. Why? Because it is so darned fun! I have turned plenty of steel into dust at a grinder and it just can't hold the same fascination for me that forging does. Forging is how things were made for over two thousand years, I figure that has to be worth holding onto. Some simple steels that aren't so great from the mill can be homogenized by the repeated heat cycling of forging, but the hammer is the controversial part...

I use to just walk away from the packing steel denser with the hammer thing*, but now I sort of have more of a duty to the ABS to see that we help with good, factual information and help elevate the craft whenever possible. The solid facts are that you cannot compress metal the way some bladesmiths think. Even if you could squeeze heavy metal atoms is not a good idea unless you are a very long ways away from ground zero when it is done, and iron requires pressure on the cosmic scale to do it.

The fact is that steel is not even as simple as iron, it is a very dynamic system that can change itself with every heat. What we can do is recrystallize the inside of the steel in all of its various phases with heating and cooling, the hammering only works within the limits of this system where heat rules everything. Give this a try- overheat a piece of blade steel and quench it. Put the overheated end in a vice and notice how little effort it takes to snap it. Now look at the grain, it will be large and sugary looking and that is why it snapped so easily. Now reheat the same end to a reasonable heat to where the magnet just stops sticking and quench it. Repeat the breaking and you will find how much more force it takes to snap it and the grains will be much finer- much finer from just one single heat at proper temperature.

This is because on every heat and cooling cycle you recreate the crystalline phase make up not once but twice. You started with overgrown martensitic crystals that when heated are replaced with new and finer austenite crystals, which are then converted to new martensite when you quench. No hammering required; steel is wonderful in that all it needs is heating and cooling to remake itself.

But don't let this discourage you from forging, when I started studying these things I found that the real facts were much more fantastic than all the tall tales about forging. Remember that heat is king in working steel and as a bladesmith you will became a master of heat more than any other approach. And if you haven't started working with Damascus yet... you will, it is too cool to ignore. And you can't make Damascus on a grinder <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> .

*OK there are probably folks reading this saying "huh? When did you ever walk away from a good edge packing debate Kevin!", you got me there, but I have simply moved on with many internet discussions... sometimes <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> .

Well said Keith and Kevin. I prefer forging because there are not limits, like steel size or thickness, for my designs. Plus it is fun. I like doing everything on a knife and forging allows me to do it. I can make steel thinner, I can make it thicker. I can make it wider or thinner. Plus I can forge in the bevels and distal taper. Yes I still have to grind, but I spend less time grinding because of forging. I don't know about being a bad forger, he can learn to be a good one. Just different ways of making a knife.

One big reason for me. There is something very satisfying about making knives the way they have been made for centuries. Carrying on and adding to the tradition I suppose. I am not going to get into the forged versus stock removal debate. I will just say I have seen a forged, correctly heat treated blade, out perform a similar stock removal blade and do things you could not do with a stainless stock removal blade. That is due more to correct heat treating and thermal cycling, plus the steel itself. And like Kevin says, you cannot make your own damascus by stock removal.

I just prefer forging. Again it is fun.

Brion

Your points on sizing stock is well made Brion. Right now I am preparing some material for a lecture on poor man's bladesmithing that I have to give at Ashokan the week after next. I was going to show how to shape without a belt grinder and even with just a hole in the ground for my forge, a little ball peen allowed me to bring a knife entirely to shape in around a half an hour and filing was just cleanup and refining. That filing did show me how much better I could be at forging however <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> .

Making a knife is sort of like making a pie. If I was making a pie, I would want to make the crust, filling, and all. It would be more work, but would be more satisfying to me.

When it comes to forging, A maker just has to want to do it. If you decide to forge the blade, you are responsible for doing it well. You can ruin the steel if you don't control the heat.

So it seems that there is not a huge difference in performance...it's true that the stock removal knifemakers usually don't HT their blades.

Forging it is then!! I'm definitely sticking with it....you guys pointed out a good sticker; An ancient craft....I like that!!

Last question here: Do you use coal or gas? I used a charcoal forge I made for the first 6 months I was in knifemaking, then upgraded to gas. I love gas....barely any scale, entire blade hot, etc... but gas is so darned expensive!! I love it for heat treating, but I was wondering if you think I should stick with gas for forging as well (is the price worth it) or forge with coal or charcoal?

Joseph

I don't know the percentage, but I think most of us use propane. As far as I'm concerned, propane doesn't get my shop so dirty and is easier to find a place to purchase. I learned bladesmithing in coal and actually prefer it over propane for blade forging. If a guy had both coal and propane forges in this sop, that would probably be the best situation.

I'm new to ABS and also to forging.

To me it is WAY more fun to forge!

It also seems like a better use of materials since most of it dosent

end up on the shop floor as dust...and much quicker, I hate standing at

the grinder for long long periods of time trying to get things "just right".

In my experiance I can get a blade to a given point of completion in about

1/2 the time too....I'm not spending hours and hours and....well you get the idea.

When I was a stock removal guy there were always shapes that I wanted to do

but couldn't....now I can!, not that I am anywhere near being competient yet but

that is another thing I also enjoy...the re-learning how to make a blade!

In my short time forging I see far more things in the positive colum then the negative.

Switching over to forging has given me a new perspective on blades and blade-making in a

really positive way. It's like I am re-discovering the craft...an old hobby now has

become much more alive in some way...hard to put to words exactly.

Thats just my 2 cents.....8o)

If I can jump in here for a moment, I am NOT a "good forger" even though I started out as a blacksmith, but I am getting better at it. Tim Hancock once told me that the "definition" of a "forged blade" is: Forged withing 1/8 inch of profile and the edge forged down to the thickness of a nickel. I don't think anyone forges stainless steel, not sure if doing that is just pointless or detrimental. That is a question for someone with more knowledge of steels. It seems that any knife made of stainless will be made from stock removal. (correct me please if necessary)

I often get asked what the benefits are to forging over stock removal and I have a pat answer, that Kevin touched on above. The quality of the knife doesn't really depend on the type of steel or the method of shaping it as much as it depends on the heat treating. Above you made the comment that Stock removal guys "don't usually heat treat their blades" and I don't think that's true. Every knife regardless of the type of steel or method of fabrication must be heat treated in order to perform well.

As you start forging blades, plan to break some of them as Kevin described and also after the tempering phase. This will show you where your HT cycles are truly supposed to be.

As for propane vs coal forging, I have used both and there are benefits to each of them over the other. Check with your local ABANA chapter to find some blacksmiths who use coal and they can explain it better than I can here.

Have fun, and remember the enigma of steel.

Josh

Hi, new guy here- just wanted to chime in with one observation-

I did blacksmithing pretty much daily for some years before getting interested in blades, and let me tell you- I'm still in awe of some of the skills shown by the good stock removal guys.

Getting some of those grinds dead on and really clean is a pretty amazing skill, and doing it freehand is a thing of beauty to watch!

I like having a good bit of both skills under my belt.

It's all so much fun.

Andy

I am very new at knife making. I was always fascinated with knives since childhood, but really started seeking out quality knives during a career in the Marine Corps. I used a knife often from pocket knives, to fighting knives and bayonets. But the rigors of a Marine Corps life and constantly moving did not allow me to attempt to make knives until last year.

I met a bladesmith who forged knives in Missouri last November. He invited me to learn and make my own on Sundays at his shop. I knew then that the challenge of forging a blade was what I wanted! I have met and talked with a lot of bladesmiths and also a lot of stock removal makers. I met the most wonderful people this year at the Arkansas Custom Knife Show. I joined the ABS in January. I have never looked back.

The difference between the two is easy for me to see. I liken the forged bladesmith and the ABS to the U.S. Marine Corps. Most people who join the service do not usually choose the Marines. Everybody knows the boot camp is hell, and the Marines don't want you if you don't want to constantly challenge yourself. There are easier routes to take. Same as making knives. Many do not want to deal with forging, the time, dirt, sweat, etc. Many just want to crank out knives. I have not yet seen an ABS member made knife that was not made with pride and attention to fit and finish. The ABS is not for everybody either. They want those individuals who seek to make the best blade they can, and to share this knowledge with others. And not just looks, but knives that perform exceedingly well. Perfect fit for me. The ABS is what I have been looking for. And forging is that challenge.

*Disclaimer: I am in no way insinuating that the Marine Corps is the only way to go, as is forging over stock removal. All our services are great, and anybody who makes knife in any way is someone I can understand and respect. But the question was forging vs. stock removal, and I believe I have found a home forging.

Tony Zanussi

Kansas City, MO