This is a topic that doesn't come up much and I'm sure varies a lot from bladesmith to bladesmith. With a finished knife of monosteel it is hard to tell how much of the blade has been forged to shape. With a pattern damascus though, it is much easier to see how much was forged to shape.
Many times in the past, I would simply forge a blade to the approximate shape and grind the blade to shape afterwards. Maybe this is because I first learned to make knives by doing stock removal but I'm sure that some of it was that I was leaving way too much scale on the blade and had to leave extra material in order to remove the scale. Recently I have been forging closer to what I am after after discussing the proper forging heat (& scale developed) with some of you.
I would appreciate any input from you masters on this subject (as well as any photos if available).
Thanks in advance.
Gary
Gary I try to forge as close to finish as possible. I really hate to grind.
Dale
Dale Huckabee
Journeyman Smith
dalehuckabeeknives.weebly.com
I don't own a grinder, so I have to forge as close to finish as I can.
Cheyenne Walker
Apprentice Smith
It seems that the older I get the more forging makes my right elbow hurt like the devil. Anymore I only forge what needs to be forged, then grind the rest.
9-11-01 , We Will Never Forget.
Work smarter NOT harder
I forge to about 85-90%. My control of the hammer does not let me get any closer. I need to practice a whole lot more. Besides that gives me grinder time.
Hey Gary,
I have been working hard at forging as close to final dimensions as possible, and have gotten pretty close...maybe 90%. However, I keep having an issue with my blades being thinner than I want, and I believe it's due to forging too close to final dimensions <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//blink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> . I am currently forging a knife to test my theory, and although I'm not finished (came in for dinner), I am already seeing that leaving a little more to work with on the grinder may help. I think there is probably a "sweet spot" for each of us, so I would recommend forging as close as you can to final, and then back-off 'til you find yours. The worst that can happen is you build your forging skills while finding what works for you. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//cool.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />
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It seems that the older I get the more forging makes my right elbow hurt like the devil. Anymore I only forge what needs to be forged, then grind the rest.
Dwane, it sounds like you have tendonitus developing in your elbow. When it hurts, is it the outside portion that curves by the tip?
Cheyenne Walker
Apprentice Smith
Maybe the question is how close to finish should we forge. Remember that forging or the placing of steel into the forge at high heats can pull carbon from blade. It is not just scale but photographs show loss of carbon from the surface of the blade. Lots of variables in what seems like a simple question. I try to forge close to finish but I intentionally allow enough to grind to a depth to get past that loss of carbon. I also avoid grinding the shape. I like the look of a forged blade and to do some shapes with a hammer takes skill. I like that.
Dan
Gary, I think MS Charlie Ochs forges to about 80 % and MS Ed Caffrey also. "Sacrificial Material" is the term with the scale and all. I've heard an MS compare the edge to a nickle thickness at the end of forging. It would be great to hear what other MS say?
Tom.
Thanks for the replies. I especially like the thought from Dan in saying, "How close should we forge?" We are all after the best blade that we can build and there are some gems to be learned here. [I have seen Dan's competition knife perform and can say that he outcut me even with a smaller, lighter blade.]
Gary
Along with Dan's line of reasoning, I have forged so close that the first edge roll after the quench/draw and subsequent testing fails. In other words, there was decarb enough and the forge/grind was close enough that the absolute edge was soft, but backing into the edge with another pass, re rolling it a little got into the hard martensitic edge and everything was good. You do have to allow for that layer of decarb.
I would also like to re phrase the question. How "good" do you forge? If you forging is very close but has even one hammer mark deeper than the rest, it will cause you to have to grind thinner. So, allowing material for your level of forging might have to be included. Of course, one benefit of this is it will mitigate the above problem of decarb.
I suspect that ones who have never experienced decarb, are doing so because their forging is not so close and they, in turn grind more. The better they get at forging (flatter sides, truer profiles, etc., the more likely they will see a blade here and there that exhibits decarb.
Gary I probably forge close to 80% of the finshed blade shape. I do leave it thicker, as Ed states sacrificial steel. When I get done forging my edge is usually slightly under an eight of an inch thick. As our founder said "forge it thick and grind it thin". Between the decarburization, scale, and other things, I like a little wiggle room.
Brion
Brion Tomberlin
Anvil Top Custom Knives
ABS Mastersmith
Appreciate the compliment, Gary. Still, on any day it could have gone the other way. I would add that most of my edges are forged down to about a nickel thickness but that measurement is after the scale and minor hammer marks are removed. Partly, because I heat tx in salt tanks I grind down to about a 1/16th on the edge prior to the heat tx.
I think we need some pictures of forged blades to show the final forged and ground dimensions. Good discussion.
There are a few smiths who only forge the distal taper and then a rough shape on the tip and tang. There is no real skill in that process and it may result in just as good a knife or better if the smith is not careful with heat/time in the forging process. I have never really liked the looks of a blade forged in such a manner where the edge is no wider than the ricasso. Forging a rough shape is easy. Forging an almost exact shape and forging the area around the ricasso takes some talent with a hammer.
Dan
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I would also like to re phrase the question. How "good" do you forge? If you forging is very close but has even one hammer mark deeper than the rest, it will cause you to have to grind thinner. So, allowing material for your level of forging might have to be included. Of course, one benefit of this is it will mitigate the above problem of decarb.
Good point. I'm still working to improve my hammering skills which poses another question. I typically use a two pound hammer start to finish. Do you finish with a smaller hammer or do you continue with your favorite hammer all the way through the process?
Thanks, everyone. This has been a good discussion and I have learned a lot already. I wish that I could spend time with each of you in your shop but this has been the next best thing. You have opened my mind to a lot of questions that I may bring up in Branson or Topeka soon. I think that I could have learned more at hammer-ins in the past if I had known what questions to ask. I appreciate your sharing the skills that you have earned over the years.
Gary
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Good point. I'm still working to improve my hammering skills which poses another question. I typically use a two pound hammer start to finish. Do you finish with a smaller hammer or do you continue with your favorite hammer all the way through the process?
Thanks, everyone. This has been a good discussion and I have learned a lot already. I wish that I could spend time with each of you in your shop but this has been the next best thing. You have opened my mind to a lot of questions that I may bring up in Branson or Topeka soon. I think that I could have learned more at hammer-ins in the past if I had known what questions to ask. I appreciate your sharing the skills that you have earned over the years.
Gary
