Joseph,

Welding is something that you would want to watch done a few times before you recognize all of the indicators. You certainly don't want to start off learning bad habits. However if you've never welded before, it can be frustrating.

It takes about three things to make it stick, assuming you have the atmosphere right in the forge or fire. It has to be hot enough, it has to be oxygen free, and you have to be quick about things.

The flux does not make it stick. Flux keeps the oxygen away from the two surfaces to be welded. Heat and timing make it stick. Once it's hot enough you have very little time to bump it together. I said bump because unlike what one might think, it is better to bump it with a big hammer than hit it with hard sharp blows with too small a hammer. After it is stuck good, you can resume forging almost like normal. You still have to work it pretty hot. Again, bring it from the fire and start the weld with no delays. No messin around after you take it out of the fire. Do all of your thinking ahead of time.

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Joseph,

Welding is something that you would want to watch done a few times before you recognize all of the indicators. You certainly don't want to start off learning bad habits. However if you've never welded before, it can be frustrating.

It takes about three things to make it stick, assuming you have the atmosphere right in the forge or fire. It has to be hot enough, it has to be oxygen free, and you have to be quick about things.

The flux does not make it stick. Flux keeps the oxygen away from the two surfaces to be welded. Heat and timing make it stick. Once it's hot enough you have very little time to bump it together. I said bump because unlike what one might think, it is better to bump it with a big hammer than hit it with hard sharp blows with too small a hammer. After it is stuck good, you can resume forging almost like normal. You still have to work it pretty hot. Again, bring it from the fire and start the weld with no delays. No messin around after you take it out of the fire. Do all of your thinking ahead of time.

Have to agree with Lin on all he has said here. I have had mixed results trying to weld 5160, so much so I stay away from it now. I will stand corrected here but I think it may be the chromium content in the steel does not like to be welded. Maybe someone with greater knowledge than me might chime in here on this.

Cheers Keith

Joseph,

I agree with Keith, 5160 could cause some welding problems. I haven't worked with it for years. I remember that I could weld it into a billet of damascus, stacked between other steels. But, I had problems welding 5160 to 5160. I didn't have as much experience with forge welding back then either……

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Joseph,

I agree with Keith, 5160 could cause some welding problems. I haven't worked with it for years. I remember that I could weld it into a billet of damascus, stacked between other steels. But, I had problems welding 5160 to 5160. I didn't have as much experience with forge welding back then either……

If it helps my experience is exactly the same as you describe Steve. Although I am not the greatest fan of 5160 I have no bias in saying that it is not as weld friendly as other steels, and even when it does stick it makes rather ugly damascus in my opinion. I also found that no forge weld was ever quite good enough for a 5160 tomahawk head, and I ended up stick welding the seams to keep them good for throwing.

Same here with the 5160. Just does not seem to weld well. Also following on Lin's good advice, you do not have to hit the piece real hard to set the weld. If you hit it too hard you can just bounce the pieces off each other and no weld.

Good luck

Brion

Joseph, I have to agree with Lin, Keith, and Steve on this. I was once working two billets at once one was 5160 on the outside the other was 1084, I could not get the 5160 to take the second weld at all the 1084 went together verry well. This got my coursity up so I put a piece of 1084 between the 5160 and got a good weld, I did tho scrap that piece of steel as to not shure what was happning, but I also dont try to weld 5160 back to itself any more.

I have had ok luck welding 5160 with the right flux, the 20 mule team just can't break up the chrome oxides with out help. I was using the anti-borax, the stuff for stainless if I remember right. That said I all ways use wrought or 1018 for the body on welded hawks and weld in a piece of 1095 or 1084 for the cutting edge.

So it seems everyone agrees that the 5160 is the problem here... That makes sense. I was confused as well, since I have made small San Mai blades, 5160 core. Like you guys are telling me, 5160 wont stick to 5160...kinda like the same magnet. Good to hear that it isn't just me.

Thank you for the good replies! I think I'll either use 1084 for welding or just bore a hole straight through. If I can find a blacksmith, I'll ask him if he can show me forge welding.

Well thanks again- I feel a lot better now, knowing that it was just bad luck using 5160. On to the next trial.... I'll show you all pics if I can get the tomahawk right. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

Forge welding isn't too difficult once you get the hang of it, and as most have observed some materials are easier to weld than others. The material may be the problem, but there are several other major factors that can ruin a weld (Lin mentioned a few). I have not tried welding 5160 but I imagine if it will weld to other materials it will weld to itself. When I forge weld this is my process.

1. Clean the metal: If it has any dirt, scale, paint, rust, etc. this will act like a barrier between the two surfaces and needs to be removed. This can be as simple as a good wire brushing or as involved as grinding the area to be welded down to bare metal. The cleaner the metal the easier it will weld
2. Clean the forge: If you use gas, this isn't much of an issue just be sure the atmosphere is not oxidizing (if it is it will produce much more scale). If using coal be sure to remove any clinker and start with a fresh, clean fire. Green coal may contain impurities like sulfer which can ruin a weld so be sure to give it time to burn down into coke before heating.
3. Heat and clean: Heat to a red/dull orange color to get ready for fluxing. Before applying flux be sure to brush all the scale off of the surface.
4. Apply flux: (Make sure your flux is clean too). Don't be stingy with the flux, it's hard to use too much (although I've heard it's possible). Flux will burn away over time so if the piece is in the fire for a long time you may need to flux it again.
   1. As a learning experiment, heat the metal to an orange heat and brush it clean then watch it as it cools. You will notice scale forming on the surface just from the oxygen in the air. Now heat the same piece again, clean it, and flux it. Heat it again and brush it one more time and watch it as it cools, if you applied the right amount of flux it should not form any scale.
   2. Get it hot but not too hot: Some materials need to get very hot to forge weld and others don't. (I think, in general, the more alloyed a metal is the cooler it should weld but some alloying elements may have different effects.) If I'm not sure how hot it needs to be I tend to venture on the hot side, bright yellow, almost white. Don't burn it though! The flux should be very liquid and drip off the piece when shaken. The metal should look clean and glossy.
   3. Hit it quick but not hard: The quicker you can hit it the more likely it will weld, remember the oxygen in the air can dirty the metal, and the temp will drop quick once it hits the anvil. Unless you are welding a large piece, like damascus, a heavy hammer blow isn't necessary, just hit it lightly with a regular hammer. A heavy blow will only deform and thin the metal, all you need to do is make contact between the surfaces.
   4. Repeat: I like to repeat the weld before I do any more forging, just to be sure everything was properly joined.
   5. Normalize: all that heat and pressure can really stress a blade out.

      All in all, 3 things are key: cleanliness, temperature, and time.

      Hope that helps,

      ~Josh S.

       

As a self taught forge welder, I have spent a good deal of time welding car springs (5160), and I have found it to be quite finicky at times. Borax will not usually clean the scale off the surface satisfactorily, but it will keep a clean surface free of scale. The solution then is to grind or file the surfaces to be welded to bright metal, and apply the first coating of borax at a very low red heat, before the scale starts to form. I usually flux once or twice more to make sure that the surfaces are thoroughly coated, and no scale is able to form on the welding surfaces.

Also, don't forge below welding temperature for the first few heats after the initial weld. The stretching of the steel at welding heat will help to solidify the weld.

I make tomahawks and felling axes with a mild steel body and a welded-in bit, which may be something else to try. Mild steel can be easier to weld than high carbon steel, and the bird's mouth weld allows the 5160 to be sandwiched between two pieces of mild steel, which can make welding easier. Just remember that the welding temperature for mild steel is slightly higher than that of high carbon steel.

--Jordan

I agree with the others.....5160 simply "does not play well with others"....or itself. Early in my career I produced LOTS of "wrapped" hawks of 5160, and nearly every one...especially those used for throwing, came back to haunt me with splitting welds. I eventually learned to just stop producing "wrapped" hawks, and went to the "punched eye" variety.