Don't think you MUST!! get everything perfect with your hammers.

Ever walk into a black smith shop? They've got tools for EVERYTHING!! For every direction they want to move a piece of steel, they've got a tool for it.

I think there's way too much focus upon forging these blades all the way to their final conclusion with nothing but a hammer. I guess I'm happy for those who do and can, but I use every single tool and gadget I can to help do what I want to achieve.

I also spent $2000.00 on a grinder with all kinds of attachments and I bought it to GRIND things to the shape I want them as well.

I'm gonna use it.

If you can't get the edge and choil pulled down to the exact profile you like, maybe start with a wider piece of steel and beat the choil DOWN!!

Don't get stuck in a rut and think there's only ONE way to forge a knife.

Spread your wings some.

All of these Journeyman smiths and Master smiths didn't get those stamps by doing everything with a hammer.

Karl, you're first on my visit list when time presents itself. I know everyone has a way, a guillotine with an angled bit is in my works and thanx to the tax man several new tools and toys are making their way into my shop including a large order from Aldo.

Thats music to my ears Karl <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

For example, I had a guy here in my shop for a visit not long ago and we were forging a knife. It ended up with some twist in it from end to end. He said something about the hard time it was going to be to forge the twist out of it with a hammer!

I said, "Why on earth would I do that?"

I have a blacksmith leg vise right next to my power hammer.

So, I heated up the blade, stuck it in the leg vise and twisted it straight with a crescent wrench.

Done.

The guy was slack jawed. He had never even thought of doing that. Thought he HAD!! to do everything with his hammer!

Think of it this way - have you ever gone into the shop of a knife maker who has been at this for some time?

He may have 2 or even 3 grinders, a couple drill presses, buffers, a small bench top vertical mill, a knee mill, a lathe, a variable speed disc sander, a surface grinder, all sorts of engravers, power tools and drawer after drawer of hand tools that would make Craftsman jealous.

Do you think he builds his knives with just a drill press and some files?

Now, do you think that out in his forge he does ALL!! of his work with just hammers?

Heck no.

I say get and use every single tool and gadget that you can lay your hands on to help you forge and build knives.

The steel doesn't really care how you make it into a knife.<img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//cool.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />

Amen Karl! You can really put it into words that I can relate to. Thanks!.

I asked much the same question a few posts earlier, I think the post was called "ricasso edge angle" it is a few back in forging techniques. Steve Culver, and others gave some great answers, I would check it out.

ETA: I just realized that I misunderstood the OP. I thought you were talking about the plunge lines... oops. I'll leave my post in, anyway, sorry for the drift.

This is a technique I use for monosteel(not damascus) and only on those with blade geometry that suits the result.(mostly, full flat from edge to spine)

1. I do all my bevel hammering on one side forging in the plunge deep on the backside. It results in a chisel ground look.

2. Flip the blade and line up the plunge to the edge of my anvil.(ricasso off the anvil)

3. With a well placed FLAT blow, strike the ricasso. This twists the handle/ricasso to center the edge, rather than trying to juggle the edge with blows from either side.

I have found this to be very effective. Karl is spot on with using tools to make things easier.

Slightly off-topic but I'd like to share another technique I've stumble upon for making everything line up when a blade is wavey or twisted. I heat the entire length of the blade and run it back and forth between my anvil and a heavy flat hammer. I can only compare it to a rolling press, even though it doesn't draw out any length. You are essentially "ironing out the kinks" and it beats the heck out of tap-tap flip, tap-tap flip...

I'm not a JS or MS, but can relate to the quest for hammer mastery (not that I have attained much). Sure there are many paths up the mountain, one of them does happen to be mastery of forging/hammering. I watched Lin Rhea (MS) do some pretty cool forging last summer in Maine for instance. Another summer David Sylvster (JS) showed me how he uses a square faced hammer to set the plunges where the blade's beveled edges pinch away from the ricasso.

If you're not aware of it, you might be interested in a a blacksmithing technique called off-setting. If you set the bottom edge of the ricasso on the anvil with the blade running wild (over air) past the anvil and do a half faced hammer blow down on the top edge of the ricasso (half the hammer face over the anvil) and on the blade spine where it joins the ricasso (the other half of the hammer face over the air) you can set a pretty crisp shoulder (assuming the anvil's edge is crisp and not rounded). This can be on the near side of the anvil by holding the blade in tongs, or the far side by holding the tang.

To go along with Phils suggestion, I also will do offsetting on the ricasso. The picture is just an idea of what we are doing. The hammer face is half on and half off and you are striking straight down on the spine. I will usually use a wooden mallet for this as it will not mushroom the spine.

I also do clean up with the grinder to achieve the look I want.

Brion

Along with what has been said, I sometimes start with a somewhat oversized bar and bump the ricasso bottom up into itself before I start to bevel the edge. This allows you more material concentrated right there and more room to pull straight down with less chance of hitting the ricasso. You've thickened ricasso, but you can take that material towards the back/tang area. This photo shows that I have just bumped it up and flipped it over to look at it. I used the same half on/half off technique mentioned above. The distal taper was already started and of course the tip has been started too. But the edge is still as thick as the bar right at the choil.

I often forge big blades this way for two reasons. I'm working from round bar and can make the flat bar whatever size I like or I just happen to have large flat bar. I do this especially when I want that dropped choil to come straight down. The other reason is that I like to forge the rough "embryo" of the blade leaving the tang especially short and thick till later in the forging. That way I can hold it by either end and it wont get floppy. When I refine the shape and thickness, it's easier for me to take the material towards the final planned shape. I do have to allow for the blade to grow during the refinement.

Right there with Lins post is what I'm looking for,,I know and use all other mentioned methods, but I'm looking for ways to widen the blade without narrowing the ricasso, I use 1/4 inch by one inch and I want an 1 1/4 inch wide blade and at least a 7/8 inch wide ricasso so I dont want to offset thatany more than i do already, I get it but with a rounded ricasso clip and not a sharp angle, so I lose almost a 1/4 inch of blade length. On occasion I use wider stock for a small blade and I get the effect but tends to be more time consuming. I find it easier to use rounded stock because I swell any area before flatting, but cant always find steel I want in rounds.

Thanks for the helpful suggestions.

Chad

I use similar hammer techniques on the anvil to the ones described. However, I acquired a large screw press a few years ago and one of my last forging steps is under the screw press. I can set the stop on the screw press to 1/4 inch or whatever dimension I want in relation to the base. I use 2 x 2 top flat die to then get a very parallel surface on the ricasso. This makes it much easier when I go to the surface grinder. I use the 2 x 2 flat die onto a 5 x 5 base plate/die to forge the bottom of the ricasso (very similar to what you have shown in the drawing of extending the blade over the anvil onto the ricasso and hitting the spine). The advantage of the screw press is that I can set the depth to get the desired width of the ricassso. Of course I have to do this before I do the riccasso flats with the screw press. Another nice thing about the screw press is that I have so much control of the force when I want the really light touch. I added this because of two things brought to mind by the posts. I realized only a couple of years ago that most of the riccassos that I forge are really only about two sizes in width. That's because the riccasso has to line up with the handle and for the handle to feel and look right it cannot be too small or too large. So roughly one size for most hunters and one size for big knives like large fighters and camp knives. That insight made me realize that I could precut most spacers and such to fit one of two approximate sizes. That saved me some time.

Anyway, it nice to know how to do it with a hammer and I think every smith should have those skills. On the other hand I can use the screw press to do what a hammer did with fewer heats and more accuracy.

Dan

Thanks Dan,

I almost bought a fly press awhile back and I wish I had, the guillitine i'm making should help me out a little.

I like the idea of the guillitine. Good luck with that. BTW I do not think everyone should go out and buy a fly-press. They are nice but there are other ways to do the same things. I am glad I have mine and use it actually quite a bit, but I would be hard pressed to say I need it.

Dan