Before reading the text my first impression from the photos was that the steel was being work above or below the forging range (temp) for the steel. After reading that the steel was from coil, leaf, and rebar, there isn't really a great deal I can offer in the way of advice. 10-15 years ago, it was somewhat possible to predict the type(s) of steel that those items would be made from. That is not the case these days. Industry has become so money hungry that they will often use the very cheapest steel possible that will meet the minimum specifications for the part/item they want to create/use. And often times sources and materials/steel types/quality change dramatically from run to run. I suspect that you have read or been told that certain items are made of a specific steel type.....you just can't relay on that kind of information in modern times, as it often ends with problems like you're having.

In short, without knowing EXACTLY what type of steel your dealing with, any advice would only be a wild guess. If the forge is working the same, and you're doing everything that "worked" previously, that makes the steel suspect.

This is a perfect example of why most of us encourage folks to use "known" steel. As long as you use scrap steel, your always going to be guessing with each piece/item you use...about every aspect of what you do, from forging through finishing. A couple of dollars per pound for new, known steel is a very small price to pay....and once you learn to work a given steel properly, that is knowledge that you will not have to "re-learn" with each successive piece.

Sorry I can't offer you a quick fix, but as I said previously, without knowing the exact steel your working with, it's the best I can offer.

Just from looking at the photos, it appears that the steel may have been forged without having been annealed first. When forging used springs, it's important to bring them up to critical heat and cool slowly in wood ashes, lime flour, vermiculite, or even a heat treating oven before using them as forging materials. Always start with annealed steel.

On occasion, you might get by with forging a piece without it, but my experience has been that the steel will develop those spiderweb cracks if you do.

By the way, welcome to the ABS!

Ryan:

You just received advice from two ABS Master Smiths who are among the best in the business today. I would follow their advice.

Also as I told you earlier today when I returned your call from the ABS 24/7 telephone line, I would advise you to register for and attend the Great Smoky Mountain Hammer-In at Haywood College in Clyde, NC on March 4, 5, and 6th. After your call my wife Sally checked the maping programs and you are a 3 1/2 hour drive away from Haywood College and in addition to the demonstrations will have access to ABS instructors, Master Smiths, Journeyman Smiths, and have a chance at some one on one instruction in the "green coal" area.

You did everything right today. You joined the ABS through our website, called for assistance through the ABS 24/7 telephone number, and then joined the ABS Forum where you asked for and received assistance with your question. Welcome to the American Bladesmith Society!

Thanks for the quick responses, I am using sections of the same pieces of steel that I have been using all along. The knives that I made before last week heat treated to screaming hard in ATF with no cracks at an orange salmon color. Maybe something I did hurt the steel like leaving outside in the winter cold. I straightened all of my stock without annealing at a bright red to dark orange. Then laid on the ground to cool before tossing in my scrap pile so all my scrap is straight when I begin forging. I then pick up a long bar ( so I don't need tongs)and allow to soak in the forge to orange about 3-5 min before I start forging, forge to shape, cut it off the long piece at orange with a hot hardy and cool on the anvil. Then I anneal three times in vermiculite starting at cool orange, then bright red, then dull red, soaking them each time for 5-10 min based on size of the piece.

I will begin annealing all my stock and then add it back to the pile before I do any more forging. I don't feel like my skill level warrants nice new chemically perfect steel because I am just now starting to get the shape I want out of the blade. I think I should continue with mystery steel until I can finish forge a piece such that it needs only a touch up on the belt sander before finish sanding. Right now it would be wasteful I think to buy 10 dollar a foot steel just to throw it away because it gets too thin during forging to grind off the decarb and still have a knife, or warps in heat treat because it was forged unevenly.

could my fire be causing the problem, maybe too much gas or air? I hope this post isn't getting on everybody's nerves but I can't stop obsessing about these problems. On another note I plan on coming to the hammer in at clyde and will definitely bring the problem samples, I would like to keep working after I figure out the cause of this problem so I have some basic skills before taking up someones time with instruction.

Unless the atmosphere is loaded with sulfur the heat source will make no difference, the steel doesn’t know what heats it, all it cares about are the temperatures it is heated to, so your gas forge shouldn’t be involved in the issue at all except for you to dial it back if it is too hot. I have to second what Ed said about the scrap steels, and if people think Ed is too picky about it they probably think I am fanatical. Your skill level requires good steel even more due to the fact of how steep your learning curve will be when scrap steel continually changes the rules on you. Again and again eventually it gets proven out that cheap or free mystery steel are some of the most expensive materials one can work with when you add up your time and supplies burned up on knives that won’t work. Even at today’s prices a new bar of steel is the cheapest part of making a knife and you can get the chemistry to know how it will behave. Please reconsider, Ed and I have been doing this knifemaking thing longer than some folks have been alive, we have been there and know of what we speak. Now off that soapbox before the crowd gets ugly. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

I happened on this thread at the time when you were switching the photos to a smaller format so I do not have the benefit of seeing the cracking, but I can hazard a few guesses based on steel behavior. There is a range of temperature just below the dull red glow that blacksmiths claim will send you to perdition of you hammer in, I don’t know about your soul but the steel will certainly suffer if you try to deform it in this temperature range. Always make sure you can see a nice red glow to the steel before you hit it.

The other side of this is working things too hot. The hotter you get the steel the more gently you want to smack it, the heat compensates for the force required anyhow. Some steels are what blacksmiths call “red short” in that they will crack or crumble up if forged at too high a temperature. Some high alloy steels behave such as this as well as steels with inordinately high trace elements or contaminants, as would very likely be the case with rebar. Rebar is very low grade hot dog steel (hot dog, because you wouldn’t want to know the kind of scraps they can use to make it), it’s quality control is very simple, so long as they can get a given tensile strength minimum from it they call it good. What more do they need to bury it in concrete?

Another issue can come about if you allow alloy steel to cool too quickly from an overheated state. Overheating will enlarge grain size, that increases hardenability to destructive levels in certain cross sections. If you air cool from these temperatures the steel can literally pull itself apart. So if you cannot avoid these temperatures to begin with then it is better to step the steel down by reheating to lower temperatures before the steel reaches ambient. And, of course never go any faster than an air cool from upper forging temperatures.

Those are the three mechanisms I can think of for your problem and all are a result of either over-heating or under-heating, proper forging temperatures are from a cherry red to a good orange ( I hate those color descriptors instead of actual temps but we will go with it here) until you get a few more blades under your belt, avoid blackish red or lemon yellow.

I never doubted any of your experience. Before joining the ABS I meticulously went through the list of smiths and used google to find examples of their work. Kevin's are among my favorites stylistically and some of his pieces are very close to sketches I had drawn in the past that I intend to make soon. I have a xiphos forged but still covered in scale on the table in front of me as I type this that I intend to fit in a viking style, (sounds strange I know, but it looks good in sketch). I would love to work with better steel but all I could find was on Admiral's website. Are their prices market average?

could getting borax flux on my fire brick draw sulfur from them and cause this problem?

I want to work with the low alloy stuff specifically 1095 and L6 but admiral sells the 8something alternative. I'm scared of the 8whatever because I don't know if it is the right metallurgy for my simple procedures since I don't have an evenheat oven and all L6 is not the same in that respect.

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I never doubted any of your experience. Before joining the ABS I meticulously went through the list of smiths and used google to find examples of their work. Kevin's are among my favorites stylistically and some of his pieces are very close to sketches I had drawn in the past that I intend to make soon. I have a xiphos forged but still covered in scale on the table in front of me as I type this that I intend to fit in a viking style, (sounds strange I know, but it looks good in sketch). I would love to work with better steel but all I could find was on Admiral's website. Are their prices market average?

Ohh, it may be better to diversify your style, particularly ones different than mine <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> Although it sounds like you are drawing from the classic ancient blades, with which you can't go wrong. Some of those ancient cultures took blade design to its limit and it has just been downhill from there. Other than inventing new quirky uses for blades, I don't think modern makers have much to offer in blade design over th true masters in centuries past.

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could getting borax flux on my fire brick draw sulfur from them and cause this problem?

Nope, it will just eat up your refractory, the bricks are mostly silica with alumina additives, wile the borax is just borax, one eats up the other but neither have any sulfur to add to the mix.

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I want to work with the low alloy stuff specifically 1095 and L6 but admiral sells the 8something alternative. I'm scared of the 8whatever because I don't know if it is the right metallurgy for my simple procedures since I don't have an evenheat oven and all L6 is not the same in that respect.

1095 is pretty simple but can still be quirky for the beginner due to the added carbon, 1075, 1080 and 1084 are the easiest of any to deal with. There is Admiral or Aldo (New Jersey Steel Baron) to get these steels from. I would stay away from L6 at this stage in your learning, it is a deep hardening alloy that will increase the cracking issues that you are already having, and annealing it will elude you until you know all of its quirks. The L6 alternative offered by Admiral is actually 8670M (modified) and it would lessen confusion if they would just list it as such. It is a decent steel unto itself but has gotten a bad wrap by people thinking it is some kind of L6 only to be met with utter disappointment when they treat it like L6. One would be better to work 8670M more like it were 5160, then the results would be less of a surprise and quite pleasing to those used to that alloy.

nothing to worry about Kevin I would never piggy back another man's style, just expressing similar interests in cultural blades.

I agree, blade design was maxed out centuries ago, I can't wait to see what happens when we apply new materials and techniques to old designs instead of re-inventing the wheel. I hope no one is planning a gladius with buffalo horn pommel and guard, and purple/black acrylester, and stainless handle spacers or I may be in trouble.

I was forging the tip for the gladius out of a 93 s10 leaf spring when I realized EVERYTHING was getting the hairline cracks. It looks like between lack of annealing and buying new steel(which comes annealed) I have a solution since fire is probably not the issue. I will try to anneal the gladius and grind away the cracks before I resume it, and trash it if the problem continues. Should this thread continue? I'm not familiar with forum etiquette since this is the first time I have posted on one.