I'm not too sure I'll be able to help you out a whole lot, but it's Blade show and it may be a little while before some others are able to answer. I'll leave the JS testing questions to them, but I'm guessing you'll hear a very clean, hand sanded finish is most likely to get you there. As for your grinding before and after heat treat, it seems many have different opinions on that. It also would depend upon how you're hardening-forge, salts, oven? The amount of potential scale would change how much I'd be leaving to grind away after. I generally go to 120 and heat treat from there. Knock on wood, I haven't had an issue yet during the hardening process.

I'll be curious to see what others say in regards to the crisp lines you've mentioned. I watched a video a while back by Nick Wheeler. I'm trying to remember, but I believe he sanded at an angle on the bevel towards the flat, and vise versa to help maintain the already crisp lines. If you're sanding in line with those transitions, it's easier to rock the sanding stick slightly and begin to wash out the crisp line. Of course, it's all easier said than done...

As for the brut finishes, I agree and disagree. CAN someone hide a bit by leaving some of the forge finish on? Perhaps. I've heard something similar said for chisel grinds-grinding only one side means you don't have to worry about matching plunges, perfectly centering the blade edge, etc. With that being said, there are many examples of incredible skill out there with the forge finish. A true brut de forge shows amazing planning and control through the WHOLE process. Imagine a lousy forger like myself. I can get a point on it, get a distal taper going, and get a tang worked out. Mostly. Then, I can take it to the grinder and clean up the profile, the tang, leave it thick enough to take care of my wayward hammer blows, etc. Can you imagine the talent it takes to effectively forge so well that the only thing needed is to grind some bevels in nicely at whatever finish you want? Case in point, Lin Rhea's current kick on blacksmith knives. If you haven't seen them yet, it's well worth your time. There are many more out there who also do some super impressive work along the forged finish look.

I think what I mean to say by it all is that first, there are different tastes for many people out there. Some like the forge finish and some don't. Second, some may use that finish to not have to work at getting a good, consistent finish on the whole blade. But, that most certainly doesn't mean it's the case for all. Just like some smiths who forge amazingly well and finish the whole knife out to whatever grit-doesn't mean I'm anywhere as good at forging and can "hide" my work through the rest of the process.

I'm looking forward to seeing what others have to say and what ends up working well for you.

Jeremy

You could fairly easily start off with a 1/4 inch stock, pound it down to 3/16, and stock removal from there without grinding the flats. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but final product could be about be the same as if you started with a chunk of square stock and forged it all the way out.

Now, if you just flattened and then went forward, it would probably look unfinished. You can flatten to minimal grinding if you want to with a hammer. But then it would just look unfinished. I think there is an art to how you leave your hammer blows to leave that forged finish on the flats. I haven't tried it yet, and I'd love to soon, and I'd love to hear of people's techniques on it.

I guess my point is, yes, your grind lines still need to be straight. But when you get to hand polishing, you don't have to worry as much about washing out the grind lines, because well, the're already sort of masked by hammer blows.

I'm still learning. I'd love to hear what peoples thoughts are on stock removal vs forged. I'm sure there's dozens of posts about it on forums. I guess my big issue with stock removal is I think I can hammer out a bevel to 80% in about the same time it would take me grind it. But hammering ends up saving me a lot of money in belts in the long run. Plus if you're really stingy, forging the blade saves you a bunch in steel you would have cut and ground out.

Nick Wheeler's videos are considered the "gold standard" of hand finishing. I did learn a lot from them and he does a great job. However, he doesn't talk much about grind lines because he's polishing a big full flat. I'm sure the principles still apply, but there has to be some good tips and tricks out there to keeping that grind line a little more crisp.

Nicholas,

The judging rules for JS and MS are posted on the main page under testing. There are also several examples of the styles that have passed. Obviously forged carbon steel knives. No Brut finished knives are allowed. Most knives are hand finished to somewhere between 400-800 grit. A machine finish wouldn't make it. I would recommend finding a MS in your area, taking an Intro Class, and attend hammer-ins.

Bob

I would absolutely love to work with a mastersmith. The closest one to me is about an hour and a half away, which is no issue. But I don't know if he'd have the time or be willing to take an apprentice or teach lessons a few times a year. I have reached out to him and I hope I hear from him.

That's great Nicholas,

Just remember his time is valuable to him. Best of Luck!

Bob

Hey Nicholas,

In the ABS web store, there is a video on hand finishing by Russ Andrews. I went to his class on hand sanding a blade at a hammer-in and it was amazing. I never thought I could learn so much about sanding, but I really did.

I think you might get a lot of help there.

-Jim

Ive done 220 prior to Heat treatment with a scotch brite coarse finish to remove any little ridges that might become stress risers when cooled quickly. After HT Ill take it up to 1200 Grit on the belt grinder, clean up plunges with Cratex wheels then strap it in to the Hand sanding stick and step back down to 220 and hand sand back up to 800-1200 depending on the knifes use. Make sure to alternate the direction each time you change grits.

220 grit, inline with blade, then 45 deg to left, 45 deg to right, Ill sometimes add a circular sanding pass after this.

320G- Inline with blade, then 45 deg to left, 45 deg to right, swirl

400G- Repeat above

600g- repeat above

800G- Repeat above

you can use some cutting agent like windex or WD40 but I dont tend to personally unless Im at the higher grits since those tend to cut better when lubricated otherwise they load up fairly quickly.

Rhynowet sheets for the 1200 + grits are great if you can find some. they last a good long while.

My results are far from master level, but I get a pretty decent finish this way and am learning more each time.

Check out some of Nick Wheelers videos on youtube, he has a how to series and a bunch on a Bowie project that shows the steps he uses and explains really well.

I'm grinding to around 120 before heat treat.

I work up with trizac belts from A300, A100, A65, A45, A30 which leaves the blade at around 500.

Then I go to polishing with Rhinowet 500 or 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000.

You can and I do for a work knife stop at 500.

I use a wide, flat steel sanding block first, then move to a micarta block and then a block with leather glued to it.

I do this process on each grit.

At the higher grits I don't use the steel block unless I cannot get the previous grits scratches out.

I go diagonal to the last grit.

If your grind is crisp then you should be able to keep it crisp with a steel block.

As for the JS judging.

Looking at the JS knives that passed the last few years at the Blade show.

They are at least 500-600 grit finish.

A very clean and uniform scratch pattern with no whirls or J-hooks.

I saw this year blades that passed that had been taken up to 2500.

The secret to keeping the crisp lines during hand sanding is to start with very crisp lines before hand sanding.

I take all my knives up to about 400 grit on a 9" disc sander before I start with hand sanding.

The other thing I would suggest is to widen out your grind. Taking a look at the knife in the photo above, I assume you are talking about that line above the grind and below the spine. On this knife, the flat grind ends a little more than halfway across the face. Why not take it up to within an 1/8" of the spine? Take a look at some of the blades in the Show & Tell thread. You will notice that the flat grind goes all the way up the blade. So maybe the best way to have crisp lines is to avoid having those lines to begin with.........just sayin'

The style of grind you have is typically more suited to a hollow grind. Which BTW, is much easier to keep that line crisp and clean.

|quoted:

The secret to keeping the crisp lines during hand sanding is to start with very crisp lines before hand sanding.

I take all my knives up to about 400 grit on a 9" disc sander before I start with hand sanding.

The other thing I would suggest is to widen out your grind. Taking a look at the knife in the photo above, I assume you are talking about that line above the grind and below the spine. On this knife, the flat grind ends a little more than halfway across the face. Why not take it up to within an 1/8" of the spine? Take a look at some of the blades in the Show & Tell thread. You will notice that the flat grind goes all the way up the blade. So maybe the best way to have crisp lines is to avoid having those lines to begin with.........just sayin'

The style of grind you have is typically more suited to a hollow grind. Which BTW, is much easier to keep that line crisp and clean.

Eliminating the need to learn a skill by taking the need out of the design isn't really a good solution for me. I want to learn how to do it right. Finishing a full flat is easy in comparison (in my opinion), and I like this look a lot better if I can do it right. I usually only do a full flat if I screw up my belt grinding haha. Everything really is easier with a full flat. You don't have to worry about the grind line when you turn the tip. When you hand sand you can just go to town with your sanding block because you don't really need to worry about a grind line.

I made a couple hand sanding tools tonight that ended up working fantastic. I ground a slit into 1x1x4 inch pieces of angle iron, and made one with a hardened leather face and left one raw steel. They kept everything very crisp, and keep the paper tight to the work surface without having to cramp your wrists all night. I'll post some photos when I finish this blade I'm trying them on tomorrow.

And I totally agree to starting with crisp grinds from the belt. I can start at 500 and finish a blade in less than an hour if everything off the grinder is perfect. But I'm still learning so I still need to correct a few things by hand.

I haven't learned how to hollow grind yet. I have a 10 inch wheel, which might work for my every day carry sized knives. I just haven't given it a shot yet. For something this wide, would a 10 work or should I save up for a 14?

This is one I finished last week. I got the grind lines to pop a little better by hand finishing the flats at a 45 degree angle, and draw finishing the bevel. With the new tools, everything seems to stay pretty cripsy even if I finish everything with lengthwise pulls. After I finish this knife, I may try the off angle technique with the new tools and see how it comes out.

Excellent! You found a way to get the look you like and are trying to achieve.

I would differ with this statement however: "Eliminating the need to learn a skill by taking the need out of the design isn't really a good solution for me. I want to learn how to do it right. Finishing a full flat is easy in comparison (in my opinion)"

It isn't taking the need out of the design, it's using a different design and one that is not as easy as you might think. The truth of the matter is that most of those "full face grinds" have a small flat spot along the spine edge of the blade. It's actually very difficult to achieve this optical illusion where the flat spot "disappears" and the grind seems to be right up to the edge. If you tried to carry that grind all the way to the edge, you would probably cut deeper than you'd want to and the plunge cut would flow off the spine edge. That would be pretty ugly. Also I would reject the notion that doing the grind partially up the blade face is somehow the "right" way and the full face grind is defacto the "wrong" way. They are two different styles and if you take the time to look at those knives in the Show & Tell forum, you will find many of them are quite beautiful, because of the full face flat grind. (many of them are ABS MS blades too)

As for hollow grinds, I can only tell you what I have used. I rough grind with an 8" serrated wheel. The grind at this point is somewhat hour glass shaped in cross section with a very large area at the spine and a much smaller fat part along the edge. Then I heat treat and finish grind on a 10" smooth wheel. The 10 inch wheel lays in the groove against the two high spots and I "join" the edges of the blade profile to each other while thinning the edge. I don't know if that makes any sense. I can provide some sketches if it would help.

Nicholas,

I've read all of the posts to see if you are getting the right direction and I believe the replies are gently steering you in the right direction. It also seems to me you are wanting validation that your way is the right way. While some of it is getting good results, the fact that you have asked question to begin with means you think need to tweak your process.

I ask you to keep in mind that the guys that have replied have been where you are and have seen the need to make changes. I can include myself in that. We often remove ourselves from the process thinking that technique is all we can really contribute. But one thing I have learned is that it takes humility to get to a higher level of knife making. Eventually, you will find that you discover as much about yourself as you do the knife making process.

There are no secrets. Keep up the good work.

I apologize, it wasn't meant to sound that way. I agree there is not always a right way or wrong way, just different designs. I wasn't implying either design is the "right way", I meant I want to learn how to hand polish the right way so it works with the design I'm using. I don't want to re-grind the knife as a flat grind. Making it a flat grind isn't going to help me learn to keep grind lines crisp.

I'm just updating everyone on progress and what's working so far. I don't want to give anyone the impression I'm trying to say my way is right or that I'm not coming to you guys with the humblest of intentions. I know I'm new, and that's why I'm here asking newbie questions. I'm just taking in people suggestions, trying them, and explaining what's working so far.

Everyone's been great help so far. And I'll post some photos on the one I'm experimenting with tonight.

Thanks

Yep. Post some pictures. We always like that. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Along with what the guys have been saying, I use a flat, hard backing for about 80% of my hand sanding and switch to a leather backing for just long enough to smooth things out. For crisp line, don't roll the stick, just hold it steady as you pull.

Karl sent me a stick made of steel with a hard rubber backing that has really been nice to work with.

It might be nice for some photos of our sticks to be shown, but we need to say where in the process we use a particular stick. I'll try to after work.