First get them to join the ABS and read ALL of the Topic of the Month threads and start discussions with them concerning those topics.

People all learn at different rates and have differing strengths and weaknesses.

Knife making will most certainly bring that out in each one of them.

You have a big bite to chew teaching that many people.

"People all learn at different rates and have differing strengths and weaknesses" quote by Karl Andersen

This is so true. You cannot use a standardized set of teaching skills with each person. However you can teach principles that apply to all. If they learn the principles, they can flesh out their skills within their own set of circumstances.

One student may be more analytical while the other is artistic with his approach to knife making. You're likely to relate more with one over the other since you yourself lean that way. But good principles help any and all. Time, temperature, and technique. How they balance to achieve the given task.

I concentrate my efforts toward demonstrating basic knife construction while verbalizing the principles. If nursery rhymes would help, I would do that.

People all learn at different rates and have differing strengths and weaknesses.

One student may be more analytical while the other is artistic with his approach to knife making. You're likely to relate more with one over the other since you yourself lean that way. But good principles help any and all. Time, temperature, and technique. How they balance to achieve the given task.

Both are so very true!

Personally, I refuse to teach more then a single individual at a time. To explain, long ago when I started offering classes at my shop, I tried to teach 3 students at a time, beyond what Karl and Lin stated, I also found that the individual who was more adept or more enthusiastic, was the one that I found myself drawn to, and unknowingly to me at the time, that was the one that I tended to pay more attention to. This resulted in hard feelings from others who felt they did not get everything they wanted out of the class(es). When I realized what was happening, the only answer for me was to restrict my teaching to a one-on-one scenario. That way the class schedule is flexible, meaning that I can spend more, or less time on any given aspect based on how well or poorly the student grasps that particular aspect. It also allows me to give my undivided attention to a single individual...which is something I feel is very important. Keep in mind that these are paid classes, and I always strive to "give" everything I can to a student...and for me, ensuring that a paying student gets MORE then their money's worth is at the top of my priorites.

Knifemaking is a "progressive" situation....meaning that one step begets the next. In many cases I have to tell students that they may not fully understand something we did in the beginning of the process, until we arrive at the latter steps. A Bladesmith/Knifemaker is not made in a single class, no matter how long it is. There are many skills that must be learned and honed through repetition.... which is why I always make sure that any student I teach understands that a class with me is only the beginning, and that it requires hard work and determination to advance their skill set.

Personally, I encourage students to take my 5 day basic course. This takes them from forging, to a basic, finished knife, giving them the basic skills/steps to build a knife from start to finish. Now mind you, those are a hard charging, with a lot of hours in 5 days, but most make it through tired, but happy.

As far as specific skills, grinding is ALWAYS the most stressful part of the class for students. Generally it's because it is unlike anything they have done before, and most have to learn a whole new methodology/skill....and they are always afraid of "messing it up". <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

On a side note, I don't know if the students you teach are paying for classes or not, but in either case there are a couple of things I feel worth mentioning.... 1. Safety. I cringed when I read "Nitric acid"....that can be dangerous stuff, and I won't use it personally, much less around students. 2. It's in your best interests to have EVERY student sign a waiver of liability BEFORE starting any instruction. Personally, I had one drawn up by a lawyer friend, and although it's not foolproof, it has saved me a couple of times over the years when a student injured themselves doing something dumb during a class.

If I might be so bold as to offer an opinion, I would say that what you are trying to do is somewhat like reinventing the wheel.

There are experienced knife making instructors out there (the ABS has several courses designed for a variety of skills) and the basics of each stage are set from experience. If you have never taken any classes on the subject matter, you are building your classes based on your "self-taught" experiences, not on mirroring what others have developed before you.

You did admit the following: "I presume, that I'm like many of you here and self-taught." That is a presumption, and probably not entirely accurate.

Many of the smiths on this forum either have either attended or demonstrated at many hammer-ins, classes, or other events. Whether as the instructor or observer, these events teach you skills. Whether those skills are targeted to the making or the teaching, attending these events teach you something.

If I were to offer you advice, it would be two-fold:

1. Not take your students any further than you already have, but encourage them to seek other avenues of learning from other smiths or join an organization like the ABS and/or their local blacksmith group.

2. Expand your own experiences by taking the same classes and attending the same events, even if those classes/events are about something that you already know how to do. The worst thing that could happen is you learn how someone else imparts the information. The best is you could learn that, and a different approach to doing something.

|quoted:

If I might be so bold as to offer an opinion, I would say that what you are trying to do is somewhat like reinventing the wheel.

There are experienced knife making instructors out there (the ABS has several courses designed for a variety of skills) and the basics of each stage are set from experience. If you have never taken any classes on the subject matter, you are building your classes based on your "self-taught" experiences, not on mirroring what others have developed before you.

You did admit the following: "I presume, that I'm like many of you here and self-taught." That is a presumption, and probably not entirely accurate.

Many of the smiths on this forum either have either attended or demonstrated at many hammer-ins, classes, or other events. Whether as the instructor or observer, these events teach you skills. Whether those skills are targeted to the making or the teaching, attending these events teach you something.

If I were to offer you advice, it would be two-fold:

1. Not take your students any further than you already have, but encourage them to seek other avenues of learning from other smiths or join an organization like the ABS and/or their local blacksmith group.

2. Expand your own experiences by taking the same classes and attending the same events, even if those classes/events are about something that you already know how to do. The worst thing that could happen is you learn how someone else imparts the information. The best is you could learn that, and a different approach to doing something.

Thanks for the advice, but I dont think I can follow it.

1. Of course I encourage the people I'm helping on the path of understanding to seek instruction as they can, and toward ABS membership, but I can only guide those discussions. Truth is,there are no local opportunities and I'm inclined not to turn away from people that express interest in blade work. I get it though, I'm not a master smith and have no grounds for teaching others, except I have skills to offer and have a group interested in exploring those skills with me. I do not plan to stop helping them learn.

2 I'll happily attend classes that I can get to. And when I can't, I'll explore skills that I can get others to recommend. So far, in my request for advice, everyone seems to be ignoring the base questions I needed assistance on. No problem though, I'll figure it out on my own.

If I had been asked the questions I posed to this forum, I would have gladly either offered supportive information or stayed quiet because I have limited knowledge in the areas of the request. I'm disappointed in the responses here. I'm hoping those currently posted are not what can be expected of the majority of the members here.

Because the ABS is a forge knife organization, and because that's my preferred method of making a knife, I would start by teaching proper heat control form beginning to end of the forging process.

Demonstrate these things first, then pay attention to each student as they do what was demonstrated.

I would teach the hammer techniques and what affect it has on the steel. At all stages of forging, heat control and hammer control make all the difference.

Again, demonstrate these techniques and assess the students performance as they are doing the tasks.

Then I would teach the grinding and shaping with files as it is the next step in constructing a forged knife.

Show them, use your work as an example and the basic benchmark for them.

The heat treat process is the heart of the operation to my way of thinking. This means more heat control and learning what happens in the steel and why. It's science and I love the science of knife making.

This is where the steel becomes a knife. Show what happens when the steel is to Hot and cool. Break a hardened piece that has been properly thermocycled and one that's been too hot. Show the grain. Reduction and grain growth.

When learning the forging aspect I would have projects, not just knives. Projects that require reducing, tapering, upsetting ect, all while focusing on heat control and hammer control.

There are many projects you could do, perhaps use youtube for ideas. Also these projects could possibly be done in mild steel to be less expensive.

I do hope this venture is successful for all involved and that you will include progress reports.

Kindest regards Chris

These are excellent tips, thank you! I have a few ideas that you've helped surface to the top of my list. I think tools will be a focus for us over the next few sessions. Forming hammer heads for rounders and flatters, drifting holes, making tongs and swage tools like fullering springs. These czn help with basic hitwirk and provide them tools needed for the processes they will explore in forge work. I had not thought to show over heating and grain structure of steels in varying stages of hardness. I may add in flexation and destruction testing as well.

Thanks again for posting this, it was very helpful.

Ed,

I'm glad Chris was able to narrow down some specifics to help you.

I would caution you about the way you are so quick to be critical of the help the others, including myself, are willing to offer. Here is what you asked:

Where I need help is in identifying skills they need, a good order to teach them and developing good assessment methods to ensure they are ready to move on to the next skill. I know this is a mouthful and a hard topic to address in a quick easy way, I'll take whatever advice you have.

Besides admitting that this is a "hard topic to address in a quick easy way", You asked for whatever advice we have. The advice offered prior to your complaint is more to get a feel for what YOU need, not your students. You are responsible for them once you accepted that title. No one can assess what your students need like you can as the instructor. By following the above advice and taking a few classes YOURSELF, you would glean some specific answers to your questions about being an instructor (since that apparently is your goal) not to mention about making a good knife.

SO, there's nothing wrong with the advice given considering that our mission is to share knife making skills and to educate specifics about that. I believe with a little patience and further cordial dialog, you could get the conversation narrowed to your satisfaction.

You're going to get a mixed bag when you ask questions on any forum. Just the same as you're going to get a mixed bag of student types. The skill of sorting and categorizing the student's needs as well as being gracious towards those who are trying to help you is something you have to learn.

Ed, I believe you have misunderstood me. This is often the case with written dialog, as there is little or none of the non-verbal communication that a face to face discussion has.

For the record, I do not agree with this statement: "I'm not a master smith and have no grounds for teaching others," and in no way did any of us insinuate such a point. I hold neither a JS nor an MS rating, yet I have taught knife making skills at public demonstrations,and have several YouTube videos of other techniques. I only teach the skills that I feel competent to teach. To do otherwise is asking students to come learn along with me while I try to become competent at something. That's fine for an open forge session, but not for the "classroom" (just my opinion, take it for what it is worth).

So now that you have clarified that "there are no local opportunities and I'm inclined not to turn away from people that express interest in blade work", you have to make a choice. Is learning to become a teacher of these skills worth the investment of travelling to non-local opportunities, or would you rather forego that and keep building your curriculum from scratch? I take it you have already chosen the latter. So here is what I suggest:

Teach them using the same progression that you learned. It is very difficult for anyone to tell you how to identify the skills your students need and what order to teach them in without knowing the students (and the teacher) and seeing what stage of development their skills are at. A paragraph description of what classes you taught is of little help, without the personal experience of seeing the class in action. For instance, if a student came to me and told me they took the basic knife making class at whatever institution, I would have only a basic understanding of what they knew. I have never taken that class, nor have I read the syllabus. If they told me that they did thus and such, and showed me what product they made from that class, my understanding of what they know increases and I might be able to identify areas needing improvement or ones for further development.

If you intend to take the students from stock removal into forging, then the basics of forging are what should be next. I would not suggest learning to forge by forging a knife though, and neither would I start by having them forge tools such as hammers, and tongs. I would work on simpler projects that taught the five basic skills: Fullering, tapering, drawing out, upsetting, and spreading. This leads to learning the different types of hammers, hammer control, working heat, temperature control, etc. There are a number of books out there on basic forging skills that you could buy, (anything by Mark Aspery comes to mind) and use the progression of the book to build your course syllabus.

Again, start with the basics, and build up to the more advanced levels. Just because you understand these basic 5 skills,and can make that hammer, do not assume that your students understand them as well.

Another small point: Perhaps if you filled out some of your profile information, we might be able to guide you to some opportunities in your area, or at least close by.

I wouldn't turn folks away or turn them to someone else unless they were trying to learn something I couldn't teach. Every little bit of extra income is nice as we all know, knifemaking is a pretty tough way to make money. If folks are willing to pay you for teaching what you know, I'd take that.

But it can be something fairly straightforward. Don't try to teach methods or styles that you don't do. I'd just say "I can teach you how to build a knife MY way." Or "Here's how I make a knife. There are other methods and other ways, but this is how I do it."

Then I'd teach them your way. Go through the steps of how you make a knife and what order of steps is important to your method of making. There's no reason to go beyond that. If they want something more after that, you could steer them to the proper channels then.

But it sounds like that's pretty much what you're doing already and nobody can ask more of you than that. So I'd say you're on the right track.

Good discussion.

I think this could become an even better discussion.

My question is, for you experienced smith's what was the order you learned techniques in and would you change the order? Would you place more importance on some other techniques?

Chris

I don't know if the order to learning a skill set really matters other than basic skills to be safe in the end you need to learn enough to make a knife.

The thing I wish I had done early on was to slow down and practice.. by that I mean repetition, making the same knife 5,10,15 times before moving on to the next more advanced thing. Mastering one design before diving into another. when I started I jumped around a lot I would make drastically different designs project to project and would not be able to apply the things learned from the last knife to the next, by the time I did another that the lesson would apply to I had forgotten it, that is until I made the same mistake again.. by the same design I mostly mean the construction method, make 10 full tang knives, make 10 through tang, make 10 hidden tang etc. finish each knife, and don't abandon projects, even if it is worthless in the end learning from your mistakes and seeing how each step effects the next makes finishing even a "worthless" knife of great worth.

MP