I think precision heat treat equipment is top priority if you plan on selling knives that people are gonna use. Plus a Rockwell tester, also preforming toughness testing and edge stability testing. Even with steels that people say are easy to heat treat like 5160, if your 50degrees off the target temp of 5160 you lose like half the toughness of that steel compared to when it is optimally heat treated.

I don't know the answer for whether you can out source the heat treat for the JS test though. Hope fully somebody that knows the answer can chime in.

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I think precision heat treat equipment is top priority if you plan on selling knives that people are gonna use. Plus a Rockwell tester, also preforming toughness testing and edge stability testing. Even with steels that people say are easy to heat treat like 5160, if your 50degrees off the target temp of 5160 you lose like half the toughness of that steel compared to when it is optimally heat treated.

I don't know the answer for whether you can out source the heat treat for the JS test though. Hope fully somebody that knows the answer can chime in.

I do have a Bench Top Wilson Rockwell Tester. Its not the R scale but I can convert it with the tables to R. I would like to find a place that can calibrate it and see if I can get a new R scale face for the dial or should I just use as is? I do have a test block too.

Personally, I did not own a heat treat oven until after passing my Mastersmith test. That being said, I did spend a significant amount of money over a period of time, having my blade Rc tested at a local community college....where they charged me $5 per blade. After a while, the results became so predictable, that I occurred to me that all I was doing, was wasting money.

The only reason I purchased a heat treat oven, is for those clients who demand stainless steels. I've never used a heat treat oven to work on carbon/alloy steels. BUT! I own/use a salt tank, which I feel is way better then a heat treat oven.

As to your question about outsourcing your heat treat for a JS test blade...... that would be a resounding NO!! Here's a copy/paste from the JS testing rules: "The applicant must have personally forged and performed all work on the test blade, with no other person physically assisting in its construction or heat-treating."

I would encourage anyone who is considering JS testing..... read, then re-read, and then read the rules again. I could type a volume of things that have failed or prevented people from JS testing over the years, simply because they either did not read/know the rules, or they tried to "game" the rules. The rules for testing at both the JS and MS levels are very clear and well written, and say exactly what they mean. Remember! Part of the performance testing is that the MS conducting the test had the option of requiring the individual testing to forge a blade.

I've had at least 4 people who have failed JS testing because they either couldn't, or wouldn't forge a blade that I specified. What it really was.... individuals who had others do work on their test blades. I was suspicious of all, for different reasons, but in the end, you're simply not going to be able to hide anything from the MS conducting the test. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

Hello Stephen,

What alloys do you plan working with up to your Journeyman rating? If your chosen steel is something like 1084, 1080 or 1075, then the only thing the oven may be critical for is tempering. If you can get your hands on a normal kitchen oven, that will do fine for tempering, just please avoid the temptation of a toaster oven, that all too common choice is among the top three biggest mistakes I see new guys make. If you have a full-sized kitchen oven, and a good grasp of using your forge, you can pass the Journeyman physical test quite easily with 1084, 1080 or 1075.

As Ed pointed out, you absolutely must do all work on your test blade yourself, and I would say this is doubly so on heat treatment, since the test is really about your skills to control heat.

A benchtop Wilson is a darn good start as they are top of the line units, although it will not be really useful at this stage. Before that tester can become pivotal in your heat treatment quality control you will need to go a bit beyond the basic requirements of Journeyman smith. With 10XX series steel there is seldom a parallel and flat place that is thin enough to harden adequately to be a reliable indicator. When you are ready to move to alloy steels that will harden completely in all the blades cross sections, then they can be tested more thoroughly. With enough practice, and the correct quenching oil, you can get some rough indicators off a through hardened 10XX series blade, but not one that is differentially hardened for the Journeyman test. But since you have time to get to know that Wilson, it really does need to be calibrated to give good results. What unit is it? Is it a JR series? I ask because the Rockwell scale you will be needing is the “C” scale not the “R” scale, the R scale is an odd ball only for soft metal or plastics.

The top things for ensuring your success in the journeyman test are-

1. Practice

2. Practice

3. A supply of good, consistent, simple carbon steel

4. Proper and controllable heat sources, like a good forge for high heat and a kitchen oven for long steady low temp.

5. A proper quench oil for long term predictable results

One thing that the ABS has taught in the past was edge quenching, but we also encourage other methods. I mention this because a good quench oil and edge quenching are bad combination, and you would be better off using a more disposable oil, like canola if you are using that technique. I prefer to teach clay application with a full quench, it preserves a good oil, it is safer for you, can increase the rate of success in the Journeyman test and, when done properly, produce a blade that will also be more acceptable for use outside of the test as well.

Ed, Thank you for your input I do have some time and am getting my Ducks in a row for this journy. Its been a lot of fun so far asking questions and applying the new found knowledge. I think I will have a heat treating oven prior to my testing. I think I may build it but who knows. Plan on going to NESM hopefully sometime next year.

Kevin, Right now I plan on using 1080 or 1084 at this point. The tester is a Wilson 3JS I had a couple small things to fix on it. The side panel handles were broken I replaced them with knurled Aluminum Guitar knobs (New meaning to "ROCK" well Tester LOL!!). Fixed the light for the dial which is 15N scale, I still need to get a key that broke in the column to prevent the anvil column from turning when you screw the anvil up to preload the unit. The key has a set screw in it that's where the key broke. Hope I'm explaining this right I was going to get Rockwell files at first but I was very lucky with this item! Couple of questions, who will test this? And when I get it recertified can I get it done at the C scale or is it even worth it? Or just continue to use the conversion chart?

Hello Stephen,

As mentioned in my other post Abs test knives made from 1084 will not be really accurately readable with a Rockwell tester, so you have time to fix it up while you work toward other steel and knife types. The “N” scale is a superficial Rockwell measurement, and thus will never really be exact to the “C” scale. What you will need to do is dial everything in to the “N” scale and then use the conversion to get an idea of where you are at. Where to get it serviced or calibrated in your area, I would have no idea. I believe Buehler bought out Wilson some time ago and they would be the ones to go to for guidance in top level servicing but that will be very pricey. If you come anywhere near $1000 in refurbishing, another machine would be far more economical. I am refurbing a 4JR right now but would prefer not to ship it once I have it dialed in enough to sell.

You have asked, on the side, how similar 1080 is to 1084. They are close enough that anything you would do for 1080 will get you to the same place with 1084; so much so that when I did my guide to these steels I just combined them onto one DVD with no problems.

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Hello Stephen,

As mentioned in my other post Abs test knives made from 1084 will not be really accurately readable with a Rockwell tester, so you have time to fix it up while you work toward other steel and knife types. The “N” scale is a superficial Rockwell measurement, and thus will never really be exact to the “C” scale. What you will need to do is dial everything in to the “N” scale and then use the conversion to get an idea of where you are at. Where to get it serviced or calibrated in your area, I would have no idea. I believe Buehler bought out Wilson some time ago and they would be the ones to go to for guidance in top level servicing but that will be very pricey. If you come anywhere near $1000 in refurbishing, another machine would be far more economical. I am refurbing a 4JR right now but would prefer not to ship it once I have it dialed in enough to sell.

You have asked, on the side, how similar 1080 is to 1084. They are close enough that anything you would do for 1080 will get you to the same place with 1084; so much so that when I did my guide to these steels I just combined them onto one DVD with no problems.

Thanks Kevin, I appreciate your expertise in this area. I'll finish putting it all back together get a 15n test block and see if the unit is even close. It is all there including a couple of different type of anvils the weights and Diamond penetrator. I will be ordering my steel after the first of the year and get to practicing!