One thing you will do, for sure, is gain that person's respect.

That's not all bad.

I just had shoulder surgery or I would type more. And I have to type with my off hand.

There is a lot more to be said on this topic.

Hi Shane

You've raised a good point I believe, I had this order come in for that 9" Bowie and the customer really wanted a spilt ring guard on it. As he explained to me, "as a homage to the D Lisch style". My motivation for contacting David Lisch was the fact that I had never seen anyone else accept him make this type of ring guard. There are other styles where the ring is formed from the extended bottom branch of the hand guard, or you could have a ring made from a sub hilt design. If I had been asked to make the ring like these there would have been no hesitation in my mind as these designs are old and accepted methods which have been used by many makers, but I felt that the split ring design was the domain of one man, hence my reason for contacting him.

Personally I just felt compelled to do it out of professional courtesy. I'll post David's response to the thread that I placed on Blade Forums and as I said there, "his kind words were really the cherry on the top".

All the best

Steve

Below is the response from D Lisch Mastersmith.

"Very nice you not only got the feel of a split ring you made it your own with the file work. the way you tucked the ring up into the stag shows just how well you studied the split ring that really makes it feel good. thank you for asking before using my design it show just what a gentlemen you are and the respect you have for the hard work that others put into coming up with there own style. well done".

Karl, I definitely agree and I look forward to hearing more from you about this. Also, I hope the shoulder heals soon!

Steve, I completely agree with your approach and would do the same. And I think your case is a very good one, because you did your research and learned that nobody else really makes those.

From my point of view, it makes sense to try to emulate the best at first, because I'm learning technique and if I start out trying to make a Bowie and end up with a dagger, I know that I missed the mark.

I'm sure that once I get better, my own style will come out and this won't be an issue. I'm just wondering how to avoid "stepping on any toes", so to speak.

Plus, I thought this was an interesting topic and wondered how the experienced bladesmiths handle this, especially among peers.

Stephen, good for you for asking Mr. Lisch and good for him to respond and approve so kindly. Shane I also have had misgivings of making knives that take on the "look or style" of another knife maker. Thank you for bringing up the topic.

A few years ago I agreed to make a knife of a particular style based on a well known maker's design. As a relatively new maker, I assumed the client had gotten permission for this to happen. Actually, I thought the originator of the design would be flattered and happy that we started the project, especially since after my part of the project, my client was going to ask the said originator of the design to make the same knife. Both would then be displayed together.

In between the time I got mine finished and the client was to contact the OOTD (Originator of the design), the OOTD saw my knife on the internet forums and let it be known that he was not happy. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//ohmy.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':o' /> I was shocked. I called the OOTD and worked it out, But I learned a valuable lesson.

Always ask. It's good form and saves any potential problems. Turns out, not all knife makers who have a recognizable style want others to emulate it.

Since then, while I appreciate someone asking me if they can try to make a knife like mine, I always say yes (so far) <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> .

This is a tricky subject, because nobody "owns" a knife design, but there are designs/styles out there that are commonly referred to as a so-and-so style something or other. Even if it were copyrighted or trademarked in some form, the specifics of that body of law are such that Steve's knife would not have been an infringement on David's copyright were it to have existed.

I think that if there is a particular style or design that is easily or readily identified with a specific maker, that you want to copy, there are good reasons for reaching out to that maker and broaching the subject as well as giving credit to them when posting pics or displaying your version.

1. It shows respect as has already been mentioned.

2. It avoids the spit fight that can occur like in Lin's story.

3. It avoids anyone confusing what you have done with an attempt at passing your work off as someone else's.

4. Probably most important, they might just give you some guidance and help in making it, maybe even give you a warning or two about difficult areas you hadn't considered or thought about.

Some makers are very touchy and possessive about stuff like this, others not so much. It is probably always best to err on the side of caution. I think it would be very rare that anyone would say "Don't you dare copy my knife."

Great story, Lin! I can actually see myself falling into that same trap, by thinking I would "honor" the OOTD, when in fact, I might turn out looking like a "thief".

Great input by all! And like Joshua points out, there may not be a legal case for duplicating work, but the loss of respect, in my opinion, is far worse than anything a court could levy against me.

I'm know that if it is a known "signature", I would definitely ask to replicate before I tried it.

Thanks again for the input and keep it coming!

You've raised and answered some very interesting and pertinent points there gents. I particularly like Joshua's reply, very specific with some food for thought. What comes to mind for me was the cold steel incident regarding their copy right on their SAN MAI III. I seem to remember they weren't happy about other makers using the term stainless carbon san mai when describing the three piece laminated construction of their knives. I haven't heard any more about cold steel issuing threats to custom makers when using san mai to describe their laminated blades. Maybe they've seen the error of their ways and have decided to leave well alone.

Steve

This is an interesting discussion and I believe that Lin Rhea and Joshua States have given some excellent advice that we can follow in this area to avoid any issues.

There are also references to copyrights and trademarks in this discussion and if I may I would like to clear up some of the definitions which can be confusing. I have had to at times do the same at ABS Board of Directors meetings because this can be a complicated area. I have for many years had the responsibility to work with a law firm in Atlanta to maintain our trademarked ABS logo.

Trademark v Copyright v Patent

A trademark is a word, name, symbol or device which is used in trade with goods to indicate the source of the goods and to distinguish them from the goods of others. The trademark protects a name, logo or slogan that is used to identify and distinguish a product or service in the marketplace. As an example the American Bladesmith Society, Inc has a trademark on our familiar ABS logo.

Copyright is a form of protection provided to the authors of “original works of authorship” including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works, both published and unpublished. The 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to reproduce the copyrighted work, to prepare derivative works, to distribute copies of the copyrighted work, to perform the copyrighted work publicly, or to display the copyrighted work publicly. Instead of protecting a name or slogan, a copyright protects an original creative work, such as a book, a film, or a painting.

A patent is the grant of a property right to the inventor, issued by the Patent and Trademark Office. The term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed, subject to the payment of maintenance fees.

I located a short article on the application and use of trademarks and patents that may show how these principles can apply in the knife business, click: http://knifenews.com...wave-trademark/

That's really great info, Dan!

I'm pretty sure that I'll stay on the right path as I tend to over analyze situations and err on the side of caution. I know that there are other new folks out there like me with similar questions, so I thought I'd ask the pros!

Excellent information Dan.

|quoted:

This is a tricky subject, because nobody "owns" a knife design, but there are designs/styles out there that are commonly referred to as a so-and-so style something or other. Even if it were copyrighted or trademarked in some form, the specifics of that body of law are such that Steve's knife would not have been an infringement on David's copyright were it to have existed.

I think that if there is a particular style or design that is easily or readily identified with a specific maker, that you want to copy, there are good reasons for reaching out to that maker and broaching the subject as well as giving credit to them when posting pics or displaying your version.

1. It shows respect as has already been mentioned.

2. It avoids the spit fight that can occur like in Lin's story.

3. It avoids anyone confusing what you have done with an attempt at passing your work off as someone else's.

4. Probably most important, they might just give you some guidance and help in making it, maybe even give you a warning or two about difficult areas you hadn't considered or thought about.

Some makers are very touchy and possessive about stuff like this, others not so much. It is probably always best to err on the side of caution. I think it would be very rare that anyone would say "Don't you dare copy my knife."

Ok this subject is a paradox and is giving me a headache on the same order i get when thinking about multiverse theory or string theory.

|quoted:

Hi Shane

You've raised a good point I believe, I had this order come in for that 9" Bowie and the customer really wanted a spilt ring guard on it. As he explained to me, "as a homage to the D Lisch style". My motivation for contacting David Lisch was the fact that I had never seen anyone else accept him make this type of ring guard. There are other styles where the ring is formed from the extended bottom branch of the hand guard, or you could have a ring made from a sub hilt design. If I had been asked to make the ring like these there would have been no hesitation in my mind as these designs are old and accepted methods which have been used by many makers, but I felt that the split ring design was the domain of one man, hence my reason for contacting him.

Personally I just felt compelled to do it out of professional courtesy. I'll post David's response to the thread that I placed on Blade Forums and as I said there, "his kind words were really the cherry on the top".

All the best

Steve

Below is the response from D Lisch Mastersmith.

"Very nice you not only got the feel of a split ring you made it your own with the file work. the way you tucked the ring up into the stag shows just how well you studied the split ring that really makes it feel good. thank you for asking before using my design it show just what a gentlemen you are and the respect you have for the hard work that others put into coming up with there own style. well done".

not knowing what it was i looked up d lisch, so is the split ring the d ring blade with the secondary finger ring?

In my view, It's simple respect/courtesy to ask for permission, if a certain design/feature

I associated with a particular maker's work.

I've done this a number of times. Most are pleased to be asked, and only one

has ever said no....