Has anyone tried low carbon alloys like A203E or even 1018?

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Has anyone tried low carbon alloys like A203E or even 1018?

Matt, i've got some of both. will try this weekend.

Gary,

Your billet looks good! I'm starting to feel pretty dumb for not trying this out sooner……

this is a subjective question in that it depends as to where one insets their thermocouple

John is correct about positioning of the thermocouple. There's a lot of different temperatures inside a forge. I have an 8 inch diameter vertical forge. I have drilled a hole for the probe in the side of the forge, about 2 inches above the bottoms of the front and back doors. This is where the billets will be when heated. It is also where the blast exits doors and seems to be the hottest area of the forge. Still, just an eighth of an inch difference in the probe's position will register a temperature change. I only insert the probe tip about 1 inch into the forge. I look for a temperature of 2,300 degrees, between the side of the forge and the billet. I don’t leave my temperature probe in the forge all of the time. I take it out after checking the temperature, so I don’t damage it by banging a billet into it.

All that you are doing with the thermocouple is determining if the forge is at welding temp where the billet is being heated. Figure out what temperature you need the thermocouple to read at in given position, to get sound welds. Then, just always check the temperature with the probe in that same position.

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Gary,

Your billet looks good! I'm starting to feel pretty dumb for not trying this out sooner……

John is correct about positioning of the thermocouple. There's a lot of different temperatures inside a forge. I have an 8 inch diameter vertical forge. I have drilled a hole for the probe in the side of the forge, about 2 inches above the bottoms of the front and back doors. This is where the billets will be when heated. It is also where the blast exits doors and seems to be the hottest area of the forge. Still, just an eighth of an inch difference in the probe's position will register a temperature change. I only insert the probe tip about 1 inch into the forge. I look for a temperature of 2,300 degrees, between the side of the forge and the billet. I don’t leave my temperature probe in the forge all of the time. I take it out after checking the temperature, so I don’t damage it by banging a billet into it.

All that you are doing with the thermocouple is determining if the forge is at welding temp where the billet is being heated. Figure out what temperature you need the thermocouple to read at in given position, to get sound welds. Then, just always check the temperature with the probe in that same position.

I use a blown forge with a ribbon burner and natural gas. The thermocouple stays in when welding and I've replaced my wog valve with a needle valve, so I can manually control the temp to within 5-10 degrees.

This may be a little bit of overkill, but I like to controls the variables when trying something new. Since I'm not monetarily wealthy and am really good at ruining perfectly good steel, this seems to be the best approach for me. Unlike JD, I've been using the hammer for everything. I made some dies for the press today and will give them a go on Sat.

I find this process exhilarating and am thankful to those who have responded.

John Emmerling

Very exciting stuff. Can't wait to try the "new" method of welding, unfortunately I have to rebuild my forge first...stupid borax.

Oh, and nice looking "W's" John.

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Matt,

I've already done some very successful multi billet work goin' "bare-back". this week I'll be trying it on welding the bit to the cheek of an axe one of my students is building. I'll check back in on that later here.

So yeah.. we did it. I successfully welded an axe together, that is welded "Bare-back", the bit to the cheek and eye WITHOUT flux. Pics to follow tomorrow when I can get to my Mac.

I use a blown forge with a ribbon burner and natural gas

John,

I don't recall ever hearing of a ribbon burner. You've got me curious what that is. We've also had several guys ask about using natural gas to run a forge, but I don't think anyone ever answered that question very well. Would you mind telling us about your forge? It would be great to have your forge information in the Topic of the Month thread that we did on propane forge design.

I completed my second experiment with this yesterday. This time I did a simple 200 layer random pattern--no flux & no grinding. After the cut & stack I gave the billet an extra long soak @ welding temp. I was successful in achieving good welds but only after some additional work. I have noticed that the dry layers seem to be more reluctant to weld on the ends. I'm wondering if there might be a carbon loss effecting the welds.

Has any one else noticed any differences?

Gary

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So yeah.. we did it. I successfully welded an axe together, that is welded "Bare-back", the bit to the cheek and eye WITHOUT flux. Pics to follow tomorrow when I can get to my Mac.

Well I am happy to have been proven wrong! I need to get some free shop time to play with this so bad!

MP

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John,

I don't recall ever hearing of a ribbon burner. You've got me curious what that is. We've also had several guys ask about using natural gas to run a forge, but I don't think anyone ever answered that question very well. Would you mind telling us about your forge? It would be great to have your forge information in the Topic of the Month thread that we did on propane forge design.

I also use a ribbon burner, but with propane, that I made with pourable refractory and crayons to keep the holes open. I used a 1/4" drill to remove almost all the crayon. I was using a single pipe burner but seemed to have hot and cold spots in my forge. I angled the ribbon burner and it swirls great and produces a very even heat throughout my forge. The forge is made using a ten inch well casing and refractory. I purchased Ed Caffrey's forge plans and modified them for a ribbon burner. There is information out there on building the ribbon burner but I couldn't find it right away. I will post it if I find it again.

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John,

I don't recall ever hearing of a ribbon burner. You've got me curious what that is. We've also had several guys ask about using natural gas to run a forge, but I don't think anyone ever answered that question very well. Would you mind telling us about your forge? It would be great to have your forge information in the Topic of the Month thread that we did on propane forge design.

Steve,

Try www.pineridgeburner.com for a commercially built burner. They're extremely well made.

I prefer to make my own for nothing more than the cost of cast refractory and a box of Crayola crayons plus a 8-10" length of 3 x 3" .120 wall tube and some miscellaneous pieces of steel.

Several years ago, the Hot Iron News of the NWBA and Abana published a 'how to' article I wrote on building them. I think I have a dvd of it at the shop and will look tomorrow.

As previously mentioned, I use natural gas and weld with no problems. The only difference in construction between using propane and nat gas is that the orifice for introducing propane is smaller as compared to nat gas. Also, nat gas needs a longer length of pipe between the gas entry and the burner head to mix thoroughly. General rule of thumb is 9x the pipe diameter,ie a 2 " pipe needs 18" to mix before the head. A good pressure blower is necessary. I run the blower at its max and control the volume with a gate valve.

I've helped friends make them and they are amazed at the heating efficiency and fuel savings.

John

John your tutorial is still on the NWBA forum. It's in the tutorials section, under the topic of ribbon burners. I think the description of how to make on is on page 6. If any one needs I can find the link.

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John your tutorial is still on the NWBA forum. It's in the tutorials section, under the topic of ribbon burners. I think the description of how to make on is on page 6. If any one needs I can find the link.

Justin,

They didn't make it easy to find, but it is there.

Thanks,

John

This thread cooled off pretty quickly. I guess no one has had any other revelations or results of welding without flux. I've been finishing up 10 knives, so haven't had my forge lit for weeks. This may be a bit off topic, but as it relates to possibilities opened by fluxless welding, there is something that I have been wondering.

I've always been very careful with the fit between pieces to be forge welded, to reduce the risk of flux/slag entrapment. We all know the risks of entrapment when using a flux like borax, that becomes a liquid at welding temperature. But with some assemblies of materials, like complicated mosaic patterns, it is not so easy to control the interface between the pieces. My question is; is there such a risk of closing up a void between pieces if you are not using flux?

I seems that there should be a concern with enclosing a pocket of air. But at the elevated temperatures of forge welding, perhaps there isn't much air to entrap. Just as a partially filled plastic bottle expands and contracts with temperature changes, maybe the volume of air between the pieces would be so small because of expansion that it wouldn't be a problem.

This would be easy enough to test, by purposely creating a void between some pieces and welding them to see what happens. Just wondered if anyone had thoughts and/or results from welding poorly fitted pieces to share.

Steve;

That is exactly my concern on dry welding. While the initial stack billet is very flat and by its nature keeps out most of the oxidizing atmosphere, I am not comfortable with the subsequent stacks. If they were ground precisely I can see it working; but as a guy working in a caveman shop, I can't take the chance on one little pin dot on the finished end.

I know that my hammer will squeeze the flux and crap out on the weld; which is why I went back to the hammer for welding after welding on the press for some time. The press did not always trap some flux; but a very small one in even one out of ten blades is not what you want to find when finish grinding. I can get cleaner welds with the power hammer.

I am not sure that I could trust a dry weld without finishing out several blades; which I think would be necessary to trust the process.

I don't have the time to finish out some test blades just to check; but it would be doubly bad to finish them out after dry welding and them not be absolutely clean.

I have no doubt that it works great for some of the bladesmiths , but we each have to work in our own manner; the dinosaurs did go extinct; after all.

A good thread.

Mike