Thats already in place....is it the fact that its an option versus mandatory?

Yes. It is an option that is very rarely exercised and that most applicants probably don't even know exists. I have not heard of a single specific case where an applicant was asked to forge a blade.

As I stated previously, personally I feel that once an individual has achieved/been awarded the MS rating, he/she has earn the right to build knives in whatever manner they choose.

I agree with you there as well. But the ABS bylaws clearly state that a rated smith may not stamp their knives JS or MS if those knives are not forged.

On another note, if there is something you feel needs changing, or added, the best way to go about that is to contact and present your input to one of the ABS board members, who in turn will present it at the next board meeting.

Thanks Ed. It's good to know that these avenues exist, and that the board is receptive to the ideas and suggestions of its members. At this time I do not wish to ask that this topic be added to the board's agenda; I simply wanted to present and discuss some of my thoughts and concerns in an open setting, and hear the input of some of my fellow ABS bladesmiths. This discussion has been very helpful and enlightening to me in that regard.

Everyone I know on my level (hobby) was "into" forging, or blacksmithing before making knives. Knives are just an extension of that intrest. I have no intrest in making a knife that is not forged. Where is the fun in that? I guess I assumed that most of us were in the same boat, but the fact that the question was asked raises other questions. If someone has hoodwinked the ABS and gained a Master rating without forging a blade. . .well, that's on them, but I don't believe it has been done.

Hello all, tho I don't possess the knowledge or skills you guys have yet I would like to chime in. I think if someone has ever hood winked either of the ABS smith tests it wouldn't take long for them to be exposed. People who collect knives seriously have a very trained eye just like the JS and MS who make them. I'm really enjoying the forging portion of bladesmithing and truly look forward to getting my JS and MS stamps when my apprenticeship is up. Someone would have to put forth alot of effort to pass off a stock removal knife as forged and then have to continue the ruse. It would be less nerve racking to learn actual forging. I believe in the general goodness of others and would try very hard not to let what someone else is or is not doing rent space in my head.

I've heard a lot of comments beginning with "I can't imagine," "I don't think," or "I don't believe..."

Guys you can believe whatever you want to believe. But it's a big world out there and what may be true in your neighborhood isn't necessarily a universal truth. And like I already said, this thread isn't about any individual knifemaker, but rather a lack of clarity about what "forged" truly means.

Take a look at the passing MS test knives in any given year and I will guarantee you will find several that weren't forged to shape. They were ground to shape from a billet of damascus. Sure, the billet itself was forged, but the blade was profile cut and ground out of a piece of bar stock much in the same way that a stock-removal maker cuts and grinds a blade out of a bar of stainless steel. Anyone with a trained eye can see this. A feather pattern with a quill that runs straight into the ricasso without disruption; a laddered Ws with perfectly straight and even rungs from tip to tang - these blades were cut and ground to shape out of a raw bar in order to preserve the continuity and regularity of the pattern. The makers will freely admit this and make no apologies for their chosen methods. Nor should they.

But since these blades routinely pass the MS testing criteria, sometimes even winning the BR Hughes award, it clearly implies that the ABS considers them forged, despite the obvious signs to the contrary. Otherwise these types of knives would be in direct violation of the ABS's own bylaws, which state that only a forged blade may bear an ABS stamp.

In almost every one of these cases, the maker is already known to the judges as an established and highly skilled bladesmith, and so the way in which he makes his knives is never questioned. But if the obvious stock-removal damascus blade is explicitly endorsed by the ABS as being "forged," despite not actually having been forged anywhere close to shape, then why not also consider a carbon steel blade forged if it was cut and ground out of a bar of W2 that had been reduced down to 1/4" thickness under a powerhammer or press?

Years ago I had an MS tell me that, technically, all knives are forged because of the way the steel is made at the factory. Even a piece of 420 stainless is "forged" under the rolling mills before it is pickled and sheared.

Indeed, by some people's definition, pretty much any knife made out of carbon steel or damascus can be considered forged, and since the ABS has never published its own definitions or guidelines, we have very little actual basis for argument.

Do you see where I'm going with this? A rule that isn't clearly defined and never enforced isn't much of a rule, is it? And this is becoming increasingly clear to a growing number of knifemakers, especially some of our newer members who haven't had much direct exposure to the ABS yet. These are the ABS members you don't know, and they're coming up the ranks without ever receiving the kind of guidance that the bladesmiths in Arkansas or Montana or Texas might expect to receive. It is one of the byproducts of the growth that has seen the ABS evolve from a small and familiar community of American bladesmiths into a sprawling international organization with more than a thousand members across six continents.

In one of the first replies to this topic, Master Smith Lin Rhea, a man for whom I have immeasurable affinity and respect, asked "what defines a forged blade? Is it the same for me as you?"

I say again, this is not for me to answer. But perhaps it's time that the ABS did.

I've read every word of every post in this thread.

Derrick, I believe you have respectfully made your point. A clarification of the word "forged" may be in order, but that is a decision of the board. Your question and subsequent reasoning is understood by all, I believe.

I would say this about "rules". They are very similar to "laws", in that the words can often be interchanged. They, that is rules, merely provide the structure to govern behavior. We are the ones, as individuals, to "flesh out" the rules, applying the principles of those rules in our particular settings. Eventually the responsibility will rest on the individual. Some are rule followers, performing the minimum of a given requirement. Some apply the spirit of the rule, going a step or two more than the minimum. It's up to us which one, we as an individual, will be. While I may complain inwardly and sometimes outwardly, about the guy who merely sticks to the letter of the law, I can't deny him that right, considering that there is a "criminal" element out there that cares nothing about rules, let alone principles. One more rule wont change anything for those. This is not to say that I think anyone has intentionally duped the system in the JS or MS testing. If that were to ever happen, I feel it would be manifest eventually.

Sooner or later, with or without rules, we will each have to stand on our merits as men or women of integrity.

I simply think we're discussing a "problem" where none exists.

I'm not sure if this is a deviation of the direction here, or not, but I will share it.

When many people think of the old world blacksmith that has been romanticized in so many ways, they seem to think of this fellow with a coal forge, a hammer and an anvil making all sorts of the truly wonderful things.

A true "Master" of his craft - right? Just look what he can do with that hammer.

Wrong.

In the day when the black smith was not only an integral part of the community, but a NECESSARY part of the community to make all of countless additions to our lives, the true "Master" black smith would have been a complete failure professionally with a hammer and an anvil.

He not only had to accomplish a huge workload to satisfy his customers, but he also had competition. There were other "Master" black smiths just down the road.

I don't know if you ever have, but if you've ever walked into a fully productive "master" black smith's smithy, it is FILLED with every gadget, every tool, every jig, every swage block, etc., etc., that the black smith can get his hands on in order to effectively create his products in order to give his customers the best product he can deliver.

I've been involved with many, many guys over my years here now. Sometimes when I have a person in my shop, or when I'm demoing at a hammer-in, I've been asked by people how to straighten up a curved knife with my hammer.

Sometimes I do.

Sometimes I don't!

I just get it hot and stick it in my blacksmith's leg vise and straighten it!

Does that make me less of a "blade smith"? (Because I didn't "forge" it straight?)

Of course not. That's what the Master Black smith would have done. That's why he had that vise.

Somewhat like making our knives.

Must they be 100% "forged" to shape? In my shop I have 3 forges, two anvils, a power hammer and a press with all sorts of dies for creating many shapes.

2 variable speed grinders, 2 mills, a lathe, a surface grinder, variable speed disc sander, variable speed band saw, etc.

And when I make a knife I use them ALL.

I, much like the "Master" black smith of old, use every single tool and gadget I can find to create the knife that reflects Andersen Forge and my abilities.

And if that Turkish Twist Damascus pattern, or that mosaic billet that I worked on for four days to make, needs to be band saw cut to preserve the pattern that I so painstakingly created - then I will cut it. To forge it would be foolish if it would ruin what I was trying to make.

Being a "Master" means being able to do it all. Not just one aspect.

"Forging" is involved, in one way or another, in every knife I make.

And I firmly believed it is, as well, across the boards in the remainder of the ABS.

Definition of FORGE. transitive verb. 1. a : to form (as metal) by heating and hammering. b : to form (metal) by a mechanical or hydraulic press with or without heat.

Or: to form or make, especially by concentrated effort.

There is no perfect organization with the perfect rules and guidelines.

We won't be the first.

Majorly, we do good things and are governed by good people with good vision. You will notice that any of those who flagrantly operate outside those guidelines don't make it.

Do we catch them all? I really have no idea.

Can we improve? Probably.

Is it a problem now?

I don't think so.

Thanks again, Lin and Karl, for sharing your thoughts and perspectives. You both make excellent points and I won't argue with any of them. I suppose the ABS's own standards and definitions are ambiguous by design. Make what you want, how you want, as long as you work the steel hot at some point during the process, and it doesn't contain more than 12% chromium. Fair enough...

And Lin, if I interpret your words correctly, you would have me stop asking questions at this point, so I will respectfully withdraw from this discussion and consider it another lesson learned.

|quoted:

Thanks again, Lin and Karl, for sharing your thoughts and perspectives. You both make excellent points and I won't argue with any of them. I suppose the ABS's own standards and definitions are ambiguous by design.

I don't find the standards ambiguous in any form or fashion.

Derrick, if you have concerns you must voice them. Don't think I'm trying to keep you from it. I'm just giving my thoughts too.

Earlier you said this:

a laddered Ws with perfectly straight and even rungs from tip to tang - these blades were cut and ground to shape out of a raw bar in order to preserve the continuity and regularity of the pattern.

While this may be the way a lot of smiths make their ladder patterns, I don't. I actually forge mine to blade shape, leaving it thick enough to grind the ladders in and then re forge the blade. It makes for an interesting look. I'd be glad to share that with you if you like. I don't know anyone else who does this exactly like I do it. It takes some planning.

Derrick

Our ABS Forum Moderators have done everything imaginable to reply to your comments and observations in this thread. They do not create the standards or enforce the rules that you are discussing.

The appropriate place for you to propose new rules or suggestions for improvement of existing standards would be before the ABS Board of Directors. You can make a request to be placed on the agenda for the next ABS Board of Directors Meeting which will take place during the Blade Show in Atlanta in June 2016 and discuss your ideas.

Lin;

I totally agree with your comments, especially the last statement!

Russell

Lin, I was referring to your comments in post #20 on page one.

Russell

Dan, as I stated earlier, I had some questions, thoughts, and concerns that I wished to discuss with my peers in this setting before bringing anything up to the board. Most of the respondents here have made it clear that they don't share my concerns, so I will simply drop it.

Going forward, when I am asked to clarify the forging issue for others, I can refer them to this thread. Being one of only a handful of rated ABS bladesmiths in Europe, and presently the only one in any of the German speaking countries, I am asked these kinds of questions quite regularly. Now I know how to answer them.