Hey Nick its Josh form the November Intro class. I am no expert by any means but I do remember Mike Williams telling a story, no surprise, at the January 2012 ABS show Journeyman Smith test criteria here in San Antonio. He told us that he has seen a few JS testers with synthetic handle material. He mentioned a tester that had a bright green handle, Micarta or G10, on one of his knives. The guy passed. Just some food for thought.

Hey Josh!

Great to see you on the boards! I must of missed that. Where the heck was I?

Thanks!

Nick

My personal opinion is to use the best materials available for all components of your Journeyman Smith Presentation Knives. Remember that the JS Presentation Set is supposed to represent your best work. Based on everything that I have seen in the JS Judging rooms and the photos of the knives of past successful JS candidates, I would recommend not only to do your best work but to also use the best available materials for all components to compliment it.

I would also recommend that you take a look at the JS Testing rules and guidelines that I have posted on the ABS Website and the advice and guidance written by past ABS Chairman Greg Neely. Greg writes on the materials topic: "Materials - use the best materials you can.  Plastic and polyester handle material might be good for a scuba knife of stainless steel, but I'd go with natural materials all the way for this test."

Hey Nick and Josh;

Good to see you both here.

Hope you are ready for Christmas? I am; almost. Going to start my shopping tomorrow; will feel weird starting up right now but I have decided this year to get it done early.

Nick;

1. Synthetic handles? Simply put, why?

2. Better looking? no

3. Stronger? maybe? for hard use? there are woods out there that will last far longer than a blade that is used hard and sharpened. Millions of butcher/kitchen knives show this.

4. To be cool, make a statement and just to see if you can; wrong place and time my friend.

You can pass; maybe just get by; but with questions of why you used a piece of plastic on a FORGED blade or you can pass with the comment of a nice set of knives.

Good wood, stag, ivory; requires some degree of experiance and expertice to finish up nicely on a knife. If you are right on the cusp of pass or no pass on your five knives; do you think a piece of synthetic will tip the scale in your favor?

A five knife set of your BEST work, I can't see synthetic in there.

Nick; look forward to seeing you soon.

All ya'll have a nice Christmas!!!!!!!

Mike

Thanks for the feedback Mike and Dan,

I got into knives during the tactical boom of the 90's and Micarta, G10 and carbon fiber are some of my favorite materials. Especially when combined with the naturally organic lines of a forged blade. I guess I have a big enough of a target on me already!

Thanks again guys. I really hope you have a great Christmas!

-Nick

Nick,

This is an excellent question. I think it was pointed out above that perhaps you will pass with Micarta or other synthetics. Some of this you know already, but for the benifit of those with less experience than you, let me ramble for just a minute.

If ever there was a time to dress up and shine, this is it. Put artistic license, personal prerogative, etc. aside and make each of these five knives as if they were commisioned by the individual judges. By THEIR specifications. I view this choice of material and resulting degree of fit/finish as an opportunity to show a higher degree of respect for the judge's estimation of a knife befitting this test. Use this choice wisely and respectfully.

Under normal circumstances, a practical eye will go far in knife making. This is not a normal circumstance. The test is to show your ability to make a knife to meet a high standard of fit and finish no matter the knife's normal purpose. Short of going to extremes, it's logical that the materials used on the five knives follow suit with the high standard, rather than the normal purpose of that knife.

Nick,

As one of the JS Judges, I'll throw my two cents in here.

I can't say that the use of synthetic materials on a test knife would automatically cause me to turn down an applicant. But, you had better have a very good reason for using it. I could only see it on a very hard use knife, like a camp knife. Or perhaps on a knife that was designed to be used in harsh environments, like a scuba knife. The only other way that I can see it, is if your use of the material adds aesthetically to the knife. Such as, the pattern in carbon fiber scales being interesting because of how they are ground. So, I may not object to the use of synthetic material, but you had better do it right and make me understand why that choice of material was correct for that particular knife. That being said, why do you want to take any chances?

There is something else that all test applicants should consider. Most persons taking the JS test are not widely known in the knife community. Your test knives will create the first impression that people will have of your work. The Judges will look them over closely. They will be on your table at the show and there will be a lot of folks come by to see them because they know you have taken the test. If you pass, your knives will be pictured in the magazines. You will be in the spotlight because you have taken the test. This is your opportunity to show everyone what you are capable of doing. Don't take chances with marginal work and materials. Don't make the Judges have to think twice about passing your work. Don't make people wonder why the Judges allowed you to pass. This is your first big opportunity to show everyone what you are capable of doing. Do your very best work and use high quality materials. First impressions last a very long time. What impression do you want to make on the knife community?

Thank you to Master Smiths Mike Williams, Lin Rhea, and Steve Culver for your detailed reply posts which should be very thought provoking for all Journeyman Smith Candidates. You vividly point out the reasons for, both in the Judging Room and beyond, why the candidates need to do their best work and use the best materials for their presentation knives.

Remember that you are applying to earn an ABS Journeyman Smith rating and there are curently only 165 Journeyman Smiths in the world.

Very well stated Mike, Lin, and Steve. Having been a JS judge, let me add that if the fit and finish were right on, I would probably pass the knife, although I would have comments. I like natural materials, if I see a nice bowie blade that has micarta on it, I will think why did you do this, would not stag have been better, or a nicely figured wood. The micarta just does not fit. Which is one of the things we look for, design, does the handle material work with the knife. While micarta or g-10 works on a hard use knife or tactical style knife, not so well on a premium hunter or bowie. Think of it this way, Nick, you are making five knives for a very picky customer, seven picky customers in fact, why take the chance. Make the best knives you are capable of with the best materials. I know, starting to sound like a broken record, but I will give the same advice, put your best work out there for the judges and the potential customers at the show.

Brion

Thanks Lin, Steve and Brion,

Great insight. I really appreciate it.

I'd better get to work!

I think Lynn said it very well, "put artistic license, personal perrogative, etc. aside". Give the judges what they want to see. For me personally the trip to Atlanta is a very expensive one, and the time spent making knives that I won't be able to sell for some time, will also affect my household budget. That said, when I go to Atlanta it will be for one reason, to pass the test. If I have any doubts about my knives I won't be going. Fortunately we have the advice of many master smiths, including judges to fall back on.

I deal with teenagers a lot, and over the years have heard a lot of questions about personal appearance, ie. how they dress. The teenage mind doesn't seam to understand why when going to a job interview they will be judged first on why their pants are halfway down their butts when there clothing has nothing to do with how they will perform their jobs. I'm not entirely sure myself but I do know that it matters. So I ask them which is more important, dressing like you want or getting the job? I look at this the same way, which is more important?

If I was going to try synthetics I would have six knives just in case, and have at least one MS critique your knives.

Once you have passed, then put whatever you want on the knives. Until the MS test at least <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

|quoted:

I deal with teenagers a lot, and over the years have heard a lot of questions about personal appearance, ie. how they dress. The teenage mind doesn't seam to understand why when going to a job interview they will be judged first on why their pants are halfway down their butts when there clothing has nothing to do with how they will perform their jobs. I'm not entirely sure myself but I do know that it matters. So I ask them which is more important, dressing like you want or getting the job? I look at this the same way, which is more important?

When it comes down to it, I DO want the job. I have long hair. Would I cut it to get a lucrative position in a company? You bet your ass.

From my perspective, I don't see synthetics as a cheap, inferior or ugly. Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder, but I find synthetics to be another world of colors and textures for us to enjoy. If you think composites are cheap, you haven't shopped around in a while.

However, it's not like making 5 squeaky clean knives isn't hard enough without raising the ire of the judges, so....

Natural it is.

Nick,

I have no doubt you'll do just fine. Lest you get the wrong impression, I too use and like synthetics on some knives and from what I've seen of your designs they certainly are appropriate and look great. BUT, just for these 5 knives, you might would want to dress them up a notch. Not because your normal style is not pretty as is but the natural materials allow you to demonstrate your ability to apply a fine finish on it. It's part of the test after all and one aspect of your knives in which you have full control of and that the judges will appreciate seeing. I'm anxious to see your knives too. I'm rootin for ya.

Hi Nick,

That's exciting news. Can't wait to see what you create!

I hear what the other fellas are saying and agree with them (not that I'm anyone to listen too). On-the-other-hand, I've got some carbon fiber with titanium ideas that I believe could be quite classy (once I have the skills to pull them off) and would not feel any compunction at submitting something like that.

Probably best not to buck the tide though!

All the best, Phil