|quoted:

Why do we not see more smiths using W2 on their performance test knives?

Steve

I suspect mostly because it is less commonly available. But a better reason would be that it is a more temperamental hypereutectoid steel, meaning it has more than .8% carbon content and thus has extra carbon to get into mischief and lead to problems in doing something as extreme as bending a blade. It can be done but for many guys starting out (test for Journeyman for example) the temperature control, more exact normalizing and annealing schedules just make it more trouble than it is worth.

But once again I doubt many get that far or deep into it, but rather go with more commonly available or more commonly recommended steels. It would be great if more applicants researched the chemistry and effects they are looking for from it in the performance but most just go by what everybody else does which, unfortunately, most often has nothing to do with whether the chemistry is conducive to differential heat treatments and bending. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

|quoted:

I suspect mostly because it is less commonly available. But a better reason would be that it is a more temperamental hypereutectoid steel, meaning it has more than .8% carbon content and thus has extra carbon to get into mischief and lead to problems in doing something as extreme as bending a blade. It can be done but for many guys starting out (test for Journeyman for example) the temperature control, more exact normalizing and annealing schedules just make it more trouble than it is worth.

But once again I doubt many get that far or deep into it, but rather go with more commonly available or more commonly recommended steels. It would be great if more applicants researched the chemistry and effects they are looking for from it in the performance but most just go by what everybody else does which, unfortunately, most often has nothing to do with whether the chemistry is conducive to differential heat treatments and bending. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

That's my consideration.

Mine will either be 1075 or 1084 for that exact reason.

Simpler heat treat.

I am strongly considering using 80CrV2 when I test. I will be doing more research and testing before I make that final decision.

Chris

I used L6 for my test, passed nicely. I have done several in the shop in 1084 that passed easily. the test is more about understanding what you are doing and having control over it than a benchmark or quality in my mind. For w2 that what Kevin said..

MP

If an individual does their homework, most of the steels mentioned COULD pass the JS test. That being said, in my mind, it depends on if your intent is to "pass" the test, or if you want to "show off". There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to an individual's JS testing. 1. Being able to pass the performance test(s) in the most sure manner. 2. Wanting to impress whomever the MS is that administers the test.

If #1 is your goal, use whatever steel YOU are most familiar with, and that YOU are sure will pass the tests. It's not a time to experiment, nor try a "new" steel that you have limited experience with. If #2 is your goal, you've already lost. Anyone who has achieved the level of MS has either done whatever you're doing, or has at least tried it, and you're simply not going to impress the individual.

More people have passed the JS test with 5160, then any other steel, but that's because it's usually recommended, and is so forgiving throughout the entire blade making process.

I agree with what's been said by both Kevin and Matthew

it is a more temperamental hypereutectoid steel

(W2)

AND

the test is more about understanding what you are doing and having control over it than a benchmark of quality

Hello all,

Thank you for responding.

My reason for asking is that I would think that a shallow hardening steel with a hamon would do pretty well in the bend test. (I realize the geometry has to be right.) Now that my HT salt pot is up and running (thanks to help and inspiration from Ed and Kevin!), I have so much more control over time and temp that W2 is becoming more and more interesting to work with.

Looks like I have some experimenting to do.

Steve

Based on my experiences with Administering JS and MS tests, historically the simplest way to successfully navigate the performance testing at either level is with a blade that has been differentially heat treated. To be more specific, a blade that has been "edge quenched".

I've had enough people who have gone the route of fully hardening a blade, and then make an unsuccessful attempt at a "soft back draw", that I generally don't recommend doing it (their blades either broke outright, or chipped badly enough to cause a failure)....UNLESS YOU ARE CERTAIN you've done a good job of the soft back draw. Most folks who attempt a soft back draw heat the spine of a blade only enough to see whatever level of "temper color" they desire...they either forget, or don't realize that in doing so you only get a "tempered skin" that is generally .020" or so, with the rest of the blade's thickness remaining in the "as quenched" state (hard and somewhat brittle). Those are the blades that often do not pass the bending portion of the test. On the other side of the coin, those who do an edge quench, and never harden the spine of the blade have no difficulties during the bending portion of the test.

I've had a number of individuals who let their ego get in the way when testing.....concerned that the testing MS (me) might be disappointed if their test blade doesn't have the "correct" degree of bend after the test is done. The fact is that the rules make absolutely no reference to the degree of bend a test blade must show afterward....whether it bends at a 90 degree angle (like a folded sheet of paper) or if the bend is equal along the entire length of the blade, it's irrelevant within the performance testing realm. Sure, certain MS, like or dislike certain characteristics, but within the testing rules it makes no difference. No respectable MS is going to impose their own will beyond the rules, nor add or detract from the written rules of the test....here's what it says:

4. BENDING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO SHOW THAT THE APPLICANT IS ABLE TO HEAT

of the fracture line is acceptable. The decision of the Master Smith is final.

No where in there does it mention anything about the appearance of of the blade after the bend portion of the test. So many individuals spend far too much time trying to "interpret" the rules, when in reality they say exactly what they mean, and mean exactly what they say. Those who try to go above and beyond, generally only create problems for themselves. Don't get me wrong....I'm not saying anyone is doing that in this thread, but I've seen it often enough that it bears being pointed out. Just take the written rules at face value, and don't try to add your own "spin" on them, and you'll discover that with a bit of time and effort, it's actually fairly simple to pass the performance standards.

Where I get more concerned then any other area of testing is the presentation phase. Speaking only for myself, I highly encourage those testing for JS or MS to get ALL their presentation test knives done as early as possible, AND GET THOSE KNIVES TO AS MANY MS FOR EVALUATION/CRITIQUE AS POSSIBLE . The reason? It's all about individual personalities. There are some MS out there who simply do not want to hurt anyone's feelings, and do not give as hard a critique as others. If you only go to one, and you get that personality type, you could end up failing. Personally, as a MS, I am very hard when it comes to a critique on presentation knives.... if I'm not, and you go to Atlanta or KC, present your knives and fail, I've not done you any favors...and you're likely gona come looking for me with a 2x4. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Don't get lazy when it comes to that advice! Any time that I am a judge, and someone fails, my first question to them is "How many MS viewed/critiqued your knives prior to presenting them here?" Historically, for those who fail, the answer is "None." or "I live too far from any, and wasn't going to drive X hours to have them critiqued." It's up to you..... if you fail to prepare, then prepare to fail.

OK.... I'm climbing down off my soapbox now. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />