Geoff,

There are lots of pics of JS sets on the forum. I would start by reading the rules first to get a good understanding of what's expected, look at the sets that people have presented in the past, and look for guidance from the MS that will respond to this post. Fit and finish is important, so hand finished is important.

Applicants generally finish their knives with a hand, satin finish. 400-800 grit was typical among the smiths I tested with.

Bob

Geoff;

If you are applying to the American Bladesmith Society for a rating stamp we want to see forged blades and hand finishes.

Your personal likes and dislikes may need to be set aside for testing.

The js requirements are simply to test your ability to show five Forged carbon steel blades of varying styles with clean hand finishing. Knives that are hollow ground full tang knives are not likely to get a passing vote.

As Robert stated; looking at photos of passed applicants will give you a very good idea of what is required.

I would think that a hollow ground, tapered, full tang knife with a buffed finish has very little forging involved in it.

Use this site, ask questions, show pictures.

I will gladly help you in any questions you have on the process.

|quoted:

Geoff;

Your personal likes and dislikes may need to be set aside for testing.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Personally, I can remember only seeing a couple of "mirror finished" blades during any of my Judging duties, and neither of those passed. It wasn't the fact that the blades were "mirror finished", it was the fact that they were rather poorly done. A true mirror finish should be just that.... no underlying scratches, or "hazy" look. My problem with "mirror finishes" has always been that many makers use the term to describe a finish they've applied to a blade, but more often then not, it's just not well done.

That being said, when it comes to testing for JS, it's just as has been said by Mike and Karl... you're making 5 knives of ABS style(s), with the finishes that are traditionally ABS. That generally means hand rubbed. The best advice I can offer is to read, and then re-read the rules for JS testing. AND... do not read into them....take the rules at face value. Don't try to "interpret" what they mean.... they say what they mean, and mean what they say. The other portion of preparing for testing is to lean/know/understand that you are testing for an ABS rating....therefore you want to build and present ABS type/style knives.

Geoff

You have asked some important questions about ABS Journeyman Smith testing and received some excellent advice in this thread. I would carefully listen to and take the advice of the three (3) experienced and highly rated smiths that answered your questions - Master Smith Mike Williams, Journeyman Smith Karl Andersen, and Master Smith Ed Caffrey.

Thanks to everyone who replied, it's much appreciated!

I've read through the rules a few times, and looked at all the pictures of JS and MS knives I could find.

There definitely does seem to be an ABS style of knife, and I guess I'll be taking the time to get the hang of it.

As for the mirror, I can definitely understand about them being poorly done, I've seen that frequently myself. Personally I'd only consider it a mirror finish if you could hang the knife on the wall and use it as a mirror to shave with.

I'll try doing some more ABS style forged knives soon, and post the best pictures I can of them to try and get any criticism possible. I've got a couple years yet, and seeing as I'll have to travel all the way from Canada when I eventually test, I'd like to make sure I have the best chance possible.

And as a side question on construction detail, at what point would a knife really be considered a true forged blade? There is definitely quite a range of required skill in forging between pounding a piece of drill rod into something flat and vaugely knife shape that mostly gets done on a grinder, and forging bevels that require minimal cleanup...

I used to do a fair bit of blacksmithing, just more tools than knives. I'm sure I'll pick it back up quick enough once I get going.

I'm definitely intent on taking advice, and being successful with the tests, much more than making something how I usually would. Any advice/criticism is definitely welcome.

Come to think of it, I know Don Hanson from another forum I used to be on, he'd probably be another good person to have take a look at my work. I've learned quite a bit from him in the past.

At the risk of asking too many questions at once, I've had a few more things come to mind​.

As far as guard/handle fitting materials, I noticed for the MS dagger it mentioned brass was frowned upon. I didn't see anything about it in anything on the JS testing I could find, but I take it stainless or nickel silver would be a better option?

On a construction note, I generally solder guards to insure there is no chance of blood or moisture getting in there and creating corrosion. Doing a good job of the soldering isn't much of an issue, but I'm kinda getting the feeling that a light press fit would be a better choice, and much easier to make for a crisp and clean look without touchups on the buffer.

Handle materials I should be good on, natural materials are a favorite of mine, especially a nicely figured piece of Rosewood.

I'm sure I'll have a few more questions at some point, I'll be playing around with making some performance test knives soon too. When it comes time I'll probably try to send at least one knife to as many master Smith's as I can, to try and get any criticism possible. Hopefully if a dozen or so think I'd have a good chance, the trip from north of Seattle to Atlanta won't be wasted.

I didn't see anything about it in anything on the JS testing I could find, but I take it stainless or nickel silver would be a better option?

For the MS knives, brass is frowned upon....mainly because it is VERY easy to work and finish....and if you're seeking the title of Master Smith, it's noticed if you take the "easy way". <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//smile.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Sometimes there's a very fine line between showing your talents, and being "lazy". <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> I generally encourage JS applicants to use Nickel Silver....mainly because I have seen a number who've used 303 or 304, and have had major issues removing all the "shadow scratches".

There is a different expectation for JS applicants versus MS applicants. The things to key in on when reading the testing rules are the expectations... the JS level the rules specify "Excellent" which means we expect some MINOR mistakes. Much of deliberation at the JS level is deciding IF a mistake is bad enough to fail an individual. At the MS level we are looking for "Outstanding to Superlative" which essentially means.... if it looks like a mistake, it is a mistake, and the knife fails. At either level, it's necessary to "bring your A game".

The most common thing I've seen at the JS level that gets folks into trouble is the mindset of "I wanna impress the Judges!" This is where a person has to be honest with themselves....if you can do it, that's great, but all too often individuals try to do something that is way over their head, do it poorly, and fail. You've got to remember that the folks who are Judging, are Master Smiths....they've either done, or at least tried to.... there's not much a JS applicant is gong to be able to do that will "wow" a panel of Mastersmith Judges. Here's a hint....what impresses me, are knives of a simple design, that are executed to the Nth degree.

Doing a good job of the soldering isn't much of an issue, but I'm kinda getting the feeling that a light press fit would be a better choice, and much easier to make for a crisp and clean look without touchups on the buffer.

That's a very good observation. Personally, I've not use solder on a guard/knife is the last 15 years. With how far modern adhesives have come, and their abilities, they provide the same benefits as solder, without all the clean up/work. When I teach, I don't even teach soldering anymore....I teach press fits. with a backfill of adhesive (acraglas in my case).

I did notice in another of your posts that you mentioned that you like to produce "thin" blades.... how thin or thick is not necessarily any issue when it comes to testing, but as you get into forging, I think you'll discover that unless you start with somewhat thicker material, you'll likely "run out" of steel by the time you get to a finished blade via the forging method.

Speaking only for myself, all the forged blades I produce are ground on a minimum of 4 times during the process.... 1. Removing scale.... 2."Rough grinding.....3. Finish grinding...... 4. Hand finishing. How much steel you remove is often directly related to how competent you are at forging....that sets the tone for everything else that follows. I've found that many folks who "cut their teeth" on stock removal have difficulty understanding why Bladesmiths routinely start with 1/4" stock....until they go all the way through the process. Something that I always make it a point to tell students concerning material/blade thickness.... "You can always take away/remove more steel, but you can never put any back." <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

Thanks for the response, that's exactly the sort of input I was looking for!

Modems adhesives are definitely something... I use loctite/hysol e120hp myself. And I've never had any luck trying to get something glued with that stuff to come apart.

Your comparison of the expectations for JS and MS make perfect sense.

I've always leaned towards clean, practical designs myself. Looks are definitely very important, but ultimately it still needs to be usable as a knife.

I see where you're coming from on starting thickness for forging vs stock removal as well. Personally I think it really comes down to thickness and edge geometry of the finished blade, regardless of what size stock you start with. I've made knives from thick stock that cut great, but there was a lot of grinding involved.

Most of the forging I've done in the past has been starting with drill rod rather than flat stock.

If possible, I'd love to send my first attempt at an ABS style knife to you or another master Smith. I figure the earlier in the process I get some input on design and execution, the better things will improve. Thinking I'll start with something along the lines of a bird and trout knife. I've always liked making and using that sort, and I'm about due for something new to live on my belt anyways....

When it comes to the performance test, I'm definitely not planning on trying to reinvent anything.... I saw an old thread on another forum of now Master Smith Kyle Royer showing off his JS test knife. I'm planning on pretty well the exact same approach, as it's proven to work.