Is there a prerequisite number of knives a person must make before attaining JS status?

Jason

The answer is no to your initial question. Please review the JS Testing rules that I have posted on the ABS Website.

I would think it varies quite a bit person to person. Natural talent, a good teacher, personally drive and attention to detail are all going to play into it. I think time may be a better guide, if you work hard for the three years you have to wait from when you first join I think you will probably be pretty close.

Personally I think I've made around 25 knives and forged around three times that many blades. I like to think I'm getting pretty close and was originally planning to take my JS this summer. Finances have pushed that trip back a year though, which is alright. It will take me that long to finish the knives and the extra year will only help my chances.

If you are planning on taking it definitely read the rules and get an idea of what is expected. If you haven't already spend some time looking at the work of JS & MS. The "critique" forum is a great opportunity to get some feedback on your work, and when you are getting close and have your knives forged have a couple MS give them an honest critique.

Jason, While I may have the numbers off a little, I heard that one of the Mastersmiths made a total of 14 knives from the beginning to getting his MS stamp. My mind is easily boggled but that is amazing.

Jason, While I may have the numbers off a little, I heard that one of the Mastersmiths made a total of 14 knives from the beginning to getting his MS stamp. My mind is easily boggled but that is amazing.

Wow... That's incredible.

Jeremy

"I heard that one of the Mastersmiths made a total of 14 knives from the beginning to getting his MS stamp."

I heard 17, but that's what I was fishing for. Let's analyze that... 6 knives for JS. 6 knives for MS. That leaves either 5 or 2 other knives outside of the test knives. This man's work is EXCEPTIONAL, which is not the point.

The standards are clear. The performance test is great. The jury/judging is great.

The 3 year wait is pointless. If I could pass now (which I can't), I still wouldn't be able to test for 2 then jury for 3 years. That has nothing to do with the standards. Either you can pass, or you can't. You can forge, or you can't.

I don't see how 3 years is even relevant to the discussion, any more than the number of knives is relevant. They both have very little to do with whether a maker could pass the performance and judging tests.

Jason-

Hoping I might be able to clear something up. You have to have 3 years in before you can test for JS, 2 if you go to one of the ABS blade smithing classes. In reference to the jury portion of the test, I believe you have 3 years from the time you do the performance test to go to Atlanta or San Antonio to submit your knives. You don't have to wait 3 years to do it. Matter of fact, I think if you go over the 3 years before taking your 5 knives in to be reviewed, you have to do the performance portion over again (thankfully someone will be along to correct me on any points that are incorrect).

In reference to your frustrations on the time constraints before testing, I can understand the point. There are a few things that are a bit of a "bummer" in regards to some of the rules. For instance, I'm all the way on the other side of the country from where I could take a class to cut a year off my wait time. I chose to pay for a week long 1 on 1 class with MS Ed Caffrey who was WAY closer to me. Other than it being a wonderful time where I learned a ton, that class (instructed by an ABS MS) with a 1 to 1 ratio for instructor to student, did nothing in regards to how long I would have to wait to test.

That being said, let me be clear that I don't yet possess the skills to pass even though I'm nearly at 3 years (hobby with a full time job). It's only my opinion, but I would think any MS offering classes should be able to get "certified" through whatever process by the ABS for their students to gain the same year off as those going to the introductory ABS class. Were this the case, it would be like the ABS having satellite classes all over the place helping bring in more people and hopefully, more applicants in Atlanta and San Antonio-all at little to no cost to the organization. It would only require they have some standard that the instructor meet as far as the class curriculum went.

But...that's only my opinion and probably worth very little <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//wink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />. Being pretty new to making knives before joining the ABS, it's a lot easier to swallow waiting the 3 years since I'd need at least that long, anyway. But, I can understand some of the frustrations an experienced maker could have who already possessed the skills necessary and either had to wait 3 years or pay to attend a basic class that was well below his/her skill set just to shave a year off.

Either way, I sit back, enjoy the informative threads, and learn everything I can in the meantime. Lots of folks say they join the ABS to try for their JS and many never make it there, let alone pass. Hopefully you're one that does. I look forward to seeing your knives between now and then.

With respect,

Jeremy

Edited to add:

After thinking about this, I wanted to include here that my comments about MS's classes don't reflect Ed's thoughts at all. I have no idea what his position would be on the matter. Just wanted to be sure it was clear these were my thoughts only.

"Either way, I sit back, enjoy the informative threads, and learn everything I can in the meantime."

You bet!

I've read and understand the guidelines/timelines/etc. I don't necessarily agree with parts of them, but they are what they are, and I signed up to be under those guidelines.

If I have to wait, I'll wait. But I won't stop asking reasonable questions.

In this case, the 3 year wait for JS testing refers to being a member of the organiztion. Personally I think it's a good thing, as it requires a level of commettment on an individual's behalf.

In my own words, it helps weed out the "rif-raf" who have "instant gratification" issues. Another way of viewing it is that those who estabilished the rules had to draw upon their own experiences when considering a given minimum amount of time that MAY be required for the average person to acquire/practice the necessary skills that would enable said individual(s) to successfully navigate the JS process. For whatever reason it was established as 3 years, and its now part of the rules we all must follow if we seek to ahieve a JS rating.

In the overall scope, when compared to other skilled crafts such as farriers, electricians, carpenters, etc., 3 years is a very short time....no other craft which has various levels/ratings provides such a short period of time to test for advancement.

|quoted:

In this case, the 3 year wait for JS testing refers to being a member of the organiztion...

considering a given minimum amount of time that MAY be required for the average person to acquire/practice the necessary skills that would enable said individual(s) to successfully navigate the JS process. For whatever reason it was established as 3 years, and its now part of the rules we all must follow if we seek to ahieve a JS rating.

Good point, Ed, about plumbers, electricians, etc. Three years starting from zero is actually a fairly fast development. I also agree based on my experience, that it has taken me at least 4 years to get to the point where my fit and finish was anywhere close to JS quality (which it may not be). What I'm suggesting, however, is that for me having made knives for 5 1/2 years before joining the organization, the three year wait is a test of my patience more than anything.

Which is more "instant gratification?" Making MS after less than 20 knives, or wanting to test sooner than 3 years?

It's part of the rules we all must follow, true. But I'm still going to ask the questions.

I don't really have an issue with the three year wait to test, I understand the idea behind it and think it is a fair test of commitment. I do however find that the fact you can take a year off that wait by taking the class to be a bit offensive. To me this comes off poorly, like "pay this much and we will let you skip a year". I understand the idea behind it, but I feel this comes off as being more about money than any addition of skill. I have been a full time maker for a long time and only joined recently. I don't expect any special treatment due to my years of experience, so why should taking a week long class change anything? (note I am NOT knocking any of the classes I think they are worth ever penny and if/ when I can afford it I want to go take the classes.)

I hope I don't offend any one with this I am just stating my thoughts on this, and I have heard these same complaints from others outside the ABS

MP

For being the original antagonist of this thread, let me argue the other side to Matthew's point. According to Ed, the 3 year wait is a test of commitment, and was decided based on the amount of time a regular guy starting from zero might could arrive at JS level work.

That being the case, a specified amount of education (the Intro to Bladesmithing class) provides the attendee enough of a head start in knowledge and skill that a shortened "growth" period makes sense from the ABS' perspective. They don't want folks to run up and test in a year, regardless of background. What they seem to want is competent, committed smiths. Makes perfect sense that in that case some ABS-sponsored education would be a reasonable shortcut.

I do however find that the fact you can take a year off that wait by taking the class to be a bit offensive. To me this comes off poorly, like "pay this much and we will let you skip a year"... I don't expect any special treatment due to my years of experience, so why should taking a week long class change anything?

Matthew

The ABS Introduction to Bladesmithing course is two (2) weeks long and is conducted at one of our ABS schools at Texarkana College, Haywood Community College, New England School of Metalwork, or our newest school in Belgium. The classes are taught by certified ABS Master Smith instructors. The mission of the American Bladesmith Society is education and I firmly believe that our schools are one of the organizations greatest achievements.

Over the years that I have been on the ABS Board of Directors and worked as a volunteer webmaster, I have had a large number of our members tell me that the two week Introduction to Bladesmithing Class was invaluable to them and took years off their learning curve. Many who take the Class have been making knives for years.

I would also add that the ABS does not make any money from these classes and pays for the advertising of the schools in the print media such as Blade Magazine and Knife World.

I think the three year wait is very reasonable. Not everyone's situation is the same but you have to have rules. Some makers started out at intro class knowing very little about making knives and the three year wait might prove to be too short. In your cases Jason and Matthew, you both are established makers with a following and essentially are wanting to get your stamp to broaden your credentials. Very similar to why I joined the guild. I think Daniel Warren had been making knife for a number of years before he went through the ABS program and he was a wonderful knife maker when he got started.

As Matthew said, it is a commitment and you're going to be making knives and learning either way. You may as well do it. You already are promoting yourself now as an established maker by posting photos of your work, discussing methods on the forums, and setting a high standard for fit and finish.

I will go out on a limb at this point and make a prediction. After you go to the effort to pass this test, there will be something that you learned by taking it that you would not have learned otherwise. I learned more on my test knives than on any others. What you learn may not be as much about the knives as about yourself.

there will be something that you learned by taking it that you would not have learned otherwise. I learned more on my test knives than on any others. What you learn may not be as much about the knives as about yourself.

That's wisdom, right there.