I'm echoing what has been said already but here goes.

I certainly don't think it is my job to be at a show to teach/mentor other makers. I'm there to sell my product and promote my business. Learning how to be successful is each smiths own responsibility.

Will I help if asked? Absolutely, just like I will help if asked knifemaking questions.

Concerning the San Antonio show,

I thought it was one of the best shows out there when in Reno. Attendance and sales were great. Alot of this was due to the Safari club and engravers show being in such close proximity. Lots of potential clients to draw from.

I figured on making it a permanent show.

Then it was announced that the show was moving to San Antonio. I didn't like it but what choice did I have, I was never asked my opinion about it.

Unfortunately, sales and traffic were slow. I should note that at this same time I decided to cut back my shows to 2 a year. I didn't feel it was in my best interest to continue to go to San Antonio so I cut this one from my schedule.

I have since went back to 3 shows a year but have added Arkansas to my schedule.

I hope my comments aren't taken as a slam to the San Antonio show, I wish the best to the makers who attend. I had a great time there and was treated very well but just couldn't justify the expense.

Jon

Then I guess I'm missing something.

I've read the article twice and I can't find any mention of "....educate Journeymen on how to sell knives."

But I've seen it mentioned here two times.<img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//blink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

With that said, I agree with Tom, I can see no reason to attend a show that did not return my investment of being there in the first place.

Knife sales are how I put food on my table. And it's my only income.

I'm ONLY a li'l journeyman, but I guess I'm smart enough to figure out how to cypher and calculate.

I have learned something in nearly 60 years of living:

If a show doesn't pay off for you - don't go.

I'm all behind that stuff. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//tongue.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

Karl, I dont want to change the origenal intent of this thread. But, I was a journey man smith for 10 years. I found out the is no us and them, in the end we are all just another knife maker. Gary

From the outside looking in as it were (I'm not party to the long term politics, and grievances, and haven't been a member long), the pervading issue to me seems to be the intersection of doing business, and the philanthropic nature of the organization.

This is something I wonder about personally, whether the ABS should even be concerned at all with the "Business" side of bladesmithing. Yes many of the members are full time, or have designs on such, but I'm not sure it should even be within the purview of the organization. It comes up as a driving force of processes in demos, and classes, and I understand why, but is it really in line with the mission statement of the ABS?

From what I see, this is the core of the issue, and even as someone who's not a full time knifemaker (although I am a full time tool and equipment maker), I can understand the need to separate the two aspects. It does make sense to say that "Shows" are about selling knives, and analyze them from a business perspective.

To me the big question here, is how can we separate the business of knifemaking, from the mission of the ABS and it's memberships involvement toward that mission. I don't personally feel that membership in this organization should be any more a "business decision" than aligning yourself with a political group or social cause, but by not separating and clearly defining the objective (even though it's spelled out in the mission statement), we create this juxtaposition.

I don't think having an all forged blade expo is a total contradiction of that sentiment, but I don't feel it's appropriate to create an environment of mandatory servitude either. I feel we'd be better served to try and build a culture of participation and assistance, but that can be difficult when it seems like it's a "business decision". I guess what I'm saying in the end is, I don't see a problem with having the show, but I believe that as in all things related to our mission, the show should be clearly defined as a philanthropic gesture, in pursuit of our mission statement, and not about "business". That being said, guilt trips aren't the answer to participation, although in my experience, they only work on someone who's already feeling guilty. Ultimately, each member has to determine what they owe the organization, based on how strongly they feel about the mission of the ABS, and what they feel they've received from the organization or membership.

I also agree, that I don't think it's anybody's (Mastersmith or otherwise) responsibility to teach the rest of us how to sell knives.. That's where the capitalistic aspect of our "work" is in direct conflict with the mission statement of the ABS, which should be idealistic in regards to the mission statement of the ABS, which afaik isn't "Teaching knifemakers how to compete with each other", rather: "To Preserve the Art of the Forged Blade."

To me, the mission statement means that we should be concerned with making and educating people in pursuit of making the best forged blades possible. Whether or not you can make a living at it seems more appropriately the purview of a "Guild", "Union", or even a "Tech School". Although I'm sure plenty will disagree.

Karl, thanks for bringing that to my attention.

I edited the post to read teach/mentor. My apologies to Mr. Phillips for misrepresenting that.

Jon

|quoted:

Then I guess I'm missing something.

I've read the article twice and I can't find any mention of "....educate Journeymen on how to sell knives."

But I've seen it mentioned here two times.<img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//blink.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

I realize that it is not stated but it is very much implied that it is the duty of the master smith to mentor the journeymen at shows. To me this is a conflict. I agree with teaching at hammer ins and very much enjoy doing so, but at any show I am there for my business alone. If some feel this is selfish or incorrect then they do not understand the viewpoint from the professional blade smith, master or not. So is this organization based solely on the hobbyist knifemaker who is here for the love and joy of occasionally making and selling a knife or does the ABS produce the best professional knife makers in the world from its ranks. I would hope that the ABS is an organization for any and all levels of knife making. However I continue to see an attitude, rules and comments that are not in the interest of the full time knifemaker because its a conflict with our ability to succeed as a businessman while participating with the organization that started many of us on this path. That is sad.

Again this was not meant to attack the show. I have no issues with it or how it's being conducted. It does not fit into my current business plan so I have gone somewhere that is more productive to me. I am not going to sit around and complain about not having sales or what I think is wrong with any show, I am going to go out and find shows that work for me, plain and simple.

This is about an attitude that is portrayed by some of our leadership towards how the membership, all ranks included, should conduct their personal business in the knife community.

Javan,

Excellent post!!!

I must say............this thread has some great potential to push us in a good direction or to divide us as an organization. Tom, you sure know how to stir the pot! <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

I have a strong loyalty to the ABS and really believe in the teaching of others as well as progressing myself. I've tried to keep the mission statement as a guide and will keep doing it as long as I'm able and take it very seriously. I would not ever intentionally speak ill of the ones before me and have spent their time and energies teaching me. I donate time and materials to the ABS auctions, and regularly teach and assist the Apprentice as well as Journeymen in my area and abroad. I feel the need to separate that from the issue raised in the original question.

At one point in my knife making career I was really looking forward to going to Reno to the show but then it moved. I was disappointed not because I dont like San Antone. I just thought that being in Reno was tapping into the SCI group and we could cross pollinate, if you will. I've been holding off going to San Antone because I just cant take a big financial hit if my show is not good. I have my family to think of too. It's just not good for me at this point. I cant afford to rack up a couple thousand dollars in expenses and not be reasonably sure to cover it with knife sales. As a married man that makes for a long drive home.

One other thing that honestly does not help in connection with the San Antonio show in particular. That is the guilt trip that I feel is laid on me in the form of banquet speech and phone calls with the same tone of message and is similar to Mr Phillip's statement. I realize they are intended to motivate, but somehow it doesn't. Some in committee positions seem to use high pressure techniques that leave me feeling guilty instead of motivated. I realize that lots of hard work and planning goes into any show and I applaud that.

But, I need to be able to decide some things for myself. I'm in the best position to do that.

I was not able to attend the San Antonio show this year, but did attend last year. Much like the when it comes to our knives as we try to progress our skills, I will not comment on what I liked or disliked about the show as I have not seen anyone ask for a critique of the show.

I will say that I have never felt cheated either at a show or otherwise and actually quite the opposite. Too many mastersmiths to mention have helped me with more information that I can completely absorb. This has been at shows, hammer-ins, emails, forums,shop visits, etc. My point is that it does not take a show to pass on the information. The teaching machine is not broken and I feel is stronger that ever before. With or without shows, I feel that this will continue and I thank all those who have and continue to help all those willing to learn. You all have been a wonderful example of what the ABS is all about and why I joined in the first place. I look forward to helping carry on this wonderful tradition.

There seems to be varying thoughts of how good or bad the show was/is based on opinions, reports, and word on the street. I would be interested in some info that removes opinions like how many makers had tables, how many people attended the show, how many total knives were brought to the show and how many were sold. While the number of knives brought to the show may be harder to get, there are several shows that count and report the number of knives sold by having each purchaser fill out a card that enters them into a drawing of some sort for door prizes or donated knives. This would allow the show to stand on its own merits with facts.

Brian

I have been watching this thread and have started replies, but like Mike, deleted them. It raises some good points and questions. Thank you Tom for starting it.

As stated the ABS mission is to promote the forged blade through education, testing, and certification. Should the ABS be promoting a show? or concentrate more on the education part through hammer ins, schools, this forum, you tube videos, etc. I spend time on this forum, through e-mails, phone calls, at hammer ins,having members to my shop, etc. passing on my experience. So should I also go to a show to pass on advice and educate and mentor the JS and apprentices on the final loop to paraphrase Jim Phillips. I think education and mentoring are great, but at a show I need to talk to customers and educate them about our knives and the ABS. I really enjoy seeing good friends and meeting new ones at shows, but I really go to sell knives. After the show ends for the day then we can pass a good time and relate our experiences.

The main reason I have not been back to the show in San Antonio is cost. My profits did not live up to expectations. So I did a cost-benefit analysis and determined it is better for me to concentrate on other shows.

As far as supporting the ABS mission, I am behind it 100%, and will do whatever I can to support that. Right now that does not include the ABS Expo because it is not economically feasible for me to do it. As Lin said it makes for a long drive home. Thank you Lin, excellent reply by the way.

Brion

Good to finally see some input here.

Dan our webmaster,

I apologize if this has taken a turn that will lead to any negative feedback of any kind. That was not my intention and I understand the move. Thank you for all your hard work in making this forum possible.

Lin,

Maybe I am stirring a pot but I did not make the stew. It is not in my intention in any way shape or form to divide this group, I believe that this is the type of conversation that is needed to make the ABS stronger as a whole. I probably took Mr. Phillips statement a little too personal due to a prior conflict, (not with him) which directly related to myself and that is all I am going to say about that. Obviously there are a lot of emotions and valid points here, as this has gotten side tracked a couple times but if we as members did not care about this organization there would be no emotion in our statements. No one can fault us for that, we all seem to want the same thing, success in our organization and success in our own business.

Most of us want to donate and support to the best of our abilities, some more than others. For myself that even varies from year to year and from organization to organization. For the past 6 yrs I have been a Board Member and Vice President of the Northwest Blacksmith Assoc. and that is where my time and energy has gone other than demonstrating at the CA hammer-in. There just simply is not enough time in the year, and that is why it takes all of the membership to make a difference, make hammer-ins great, and support the ABS financially when and where they can through venues, auctions or raffles. I have been in the leadership position of a non-profit and I know how hard it is to maintain and find new membership participation of any sort. However for me this leads back to the initial post. One thing I have learned as I have been on both sides of this fence is that any negative or what could be perceived as negative feedback from any leadership will do more to discourage membership participation than anything else and this concerns me as a Master Smith who has sweated and bled to go through the ranks because I believe in the forged blade and the ABS mission to preserve the craft.

Brion,

I feel you hit the head on the nail about who the Master Smiths as well as the Journeyman and the Apprentices of the ABS should be concentrating their efforts on educating at shows.....THE CUSTOMER. That is what is lacking in the show from what I am gathering here from those who are responding to Mike's question. At any show this is a dog chasing its tail. If the most world renown makers attend a show and there are no buyers the makers will not return but the buyers will not attend if those makers are not in attendance. So the answer has to be to educate more outside buyers as the ABS membership did very successfully with the Safari Club in Reno.

We need to come up with an education program designed specifically to increase the appreciation of the forged blade with the public not the education of how to make one. The ABS already does a stellar job with educating knifemakers thanks to a handful of Smiths that probably donate 80-90% of what is donated as a whole. I have a great appreciation for what you guys do. I would think the ABS could make this work as it is educating the public, although the end result would hopefully be more sales and success in business for the membership, all ranks. I think this is a different approach than what the expo turned out to be although I can not tell you what that approach is. Its just a random thought but now I have put it out there for the membership to contemplate.

Like many, I have been mulling this topic over for some time. Just haven't had the time to write something and then delete it. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//tongue.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

I'm sure that Mr. Phillips meant well with his comment, but might have left a better impression if he had given a message of encouragement and good reasons for Master Smiths to attend, rather than an admonishment for not. Like Lin, I don't feel that the speeches at banquets have been helpful. Some of them have come off sounding like we owed it to the ABS to attend in spite of the show, instead of telling us why we couldn't afford not to attend.

I never had a table in Reno, so have no perspective of that show. But, I have attended all of the shows in San Antonio. As a businessman, this has not always been a good financial decision. However I have continued, just to see if this show could become worthwhile. Each year I go, not knowing if I will commit to the next year. I have made a deposit on a table for the 2014 show, primarily because the table fees have been lowered and the venue has changed. I will wait to see what happens at the 2014 show, before I decide on a table for 2015.

As for the 2013 show, attendance was a lot better from the local public. I know the Expo Committee did a lot of local advertizing and it appeared to pay off. Some of the local people who came in, actually spent a lot of money on knives. I think attendance and sales were better than previous years. However, attendance by "known" knife collectors was dismal.

The way to get makers to attend a show, is to give them a good business reason. That reason is sales, sales are driven by buyers attending. Confidence that there will be sales, is improved by the knowledge that "known" knife buyers will come. Perhaps it would be better to ask the known buyers what they will require to come to the show, rather than pressure makers to attend a show that they are not confident in.

I've heard a lot of comments that the show date being two weeks before the Arkansas Show is a bad idea. Most of the collectors who are planning to go to Arkansas are not willing to go to San Antonio two weeks previous. I've also heard that travel to San Antonio is not easy. Don't know about that personally, because I drive to it. But a show's location has to be considered in planning.

I know the Expo committee is doing all that they know how to promote this show. I commend and thank them for their time and effort to put this show on. However, they are knifemakers; not show promoters. Perhaps it is time to enlist the skills of a professional show promoter.

The announcement of the cancellation of the ABS EXPO in San Antonio made me read through this entire thread (again)and I finally feel as though I might have something to add to this conversation. (for anyone who cares to listen)

The following excerpts were copied and pasted right off the ABS webpage.

This is the “purpose” of the ABS:

The American Bladesmith Society was formed primarily to encourage and promote activities involving the art and science of forging metal, particularly tools, weapons, and art forms.

This is the “Mission” of the ABS:

Our mission is preserving and promoting the ancient craft of forged knives through education, testing and certification.

First, I would like to point out the divergence of these two statements, when in my tiny brain they should be much more closely aligned (if not identical). Second, I would like to ask why the promotion of a knife show does NOT fit into either of these two statements as some of the previous posts have either implied, or come straight out and said so.

For either of these statements, the end result is the continuation of an ancient trade, forged steel and iron, which was close to extinction because there was no money to be made in a world of high-tech manufacturing. Therefore, I would conclude that the ABS has a duty to at least try and provide either a venue for its members to sell their wares, or education on the “how” to do so. To omit this from the ABS’ activities would be a failure to support either the stated mission or purpose.

Non-profit or not, the ABS has an obligation to recognize the profit-making side of this equation, and I dismiss any comment that would use non-profit status as a reason to disqualify the ABS from sponsoring a for-profit event for its members. Perhaps the answer is in the idea of “co-competition”. This is a concept where two potentially competitive interests cooperate in a joint venture that neither one could perform on its own, but the pooled resources make it a win-win situation for both parties. Several members have stated that the reason they liked the show in Reno, was the coincidental merging of other shows’ attendees with the ABS show. Perhaps if the EXPO featured more of those “art forms” mentioned in the “purpose” statement, a different type of collector might show up. I have found that art collectors are susceptible to adding a well-made knife to their collections. Just an observation.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and thanks in advance for replying,

Joshua States