Tom,

While I respect Mr. Phillips position, it is one that I strongly disagree with! While I am not a Master Smith, I have been making knives sicne 1972; Mr. Phillips attitudde is the very reason I resigned from the Knifemakers Guild Back in the late 80's.

What gives him the right to determine what shows another will or will not attend? As with other groups this requires monitoring whichs leads to my next thought, what proof do they require to permitt absence? One's medical records, doctor's note? Come on, Master Smiths should be able to chart their on course and if somone wants input go to a show they will be at, or e-mail and make an appointment with them!

Stephen Terrill

I figure that Jim was doing what he thought best to encourage more Mastersmiths to attend the show thereby making it more successful in terms of attendance by both makers and potential customers. Sort of an attempt at trying to improve less than stellar participation by some of the better known makers and large numbers of serious customers. Personally we determine the shows we attend based on business, not a feeling of supporting an organization or teaching other makers. There are Hammer ins and shop visits that do a great job with that. For me shows are for selling knives.

We always had great shows when the ABS was in Reno and we had the Safari Club to draw from for new and serious customers. We did the show in San Antonio once and for me the expense and potential for growth did not meet what we look for in a knife show. We had a great time, were treated well and really enjoyed the area. Unfortunately when deriving the families full income from knife sales you can't always do the fun stuff instead of the profitable stuff.

From what I read the ABS Show is growing and getting better each year. I hope they are successful and their show becomes the best show on the circuit. Personally I feel with any business venture it is best to eliminate any negative connotation. Trying to make Mastersmiths that don't attend an optional event fee bad probably wont work. But, what do I know about such things.

Daniel Winkler

Tom, I believe it is my job as a board member to hear your concerns and thoughts on topics such as this, so my post is to address that rather than give my opinion on the matter at hand, which I would like to be guided by the prevailing feelings of the membership. Agree or disagree, I hope there is no reprimand anytime the membership takes the time to share their thoughts. I see the ABS as a bottom up group that is nothing without its membership. I feel there are already too few opportunities for me to get the input I need to accurately represent the membership, and so I embrace any chance to hear their thoughts, and only in open dialogue on the opinions of the membership can I get an idea of how to best serve the largest number of them.

I want you to know that I will be watching this, and any other conversations, with great interest as an opportunity for the membership’s feelings to guide me. I light of that, the more, positive, constructive and informative the dialogue is, the more useful it will be to me.

Kevin thank you for your willingness to have this topic discussed.

As with Daniel I too look at shows from purely a business point of view. I too had stellar shows in Reno but for me Texas did not prove to be the same. I had a great time and everyone was around me was great, but my sales were terrible. I do not blame anyone for this, sometimes shows go that due to any number of factors. Its a part of this business, but I can only blame and hurt myself if I continue to lose money at a specific show by attending solely based on the fun and not on the business of it. Knife shows are not vacations or a place to gather with friends, they are a place of business and if you are to be successful as a full time knife maker in modern times that is the perspective one must have.

I feel this statement was probably made with good intentions. However I also believe the way this statement was written will push many of the Master Smiths even farther away, many of us already feel as though the Board in general does not care about our opinions, many of us have been lectured as to how we should conduct business, all of this behavior has sent many of us to the fringes. Are not the Master Smiths the organizations most potential advertising for recruiting new members? Obviously Mr. Philips must believe this as he is disappointed that I am not there training journeymen on how to sell there knives. I can assure you that attending a show based on helping out my fellow blade smiths is not in my current business plan, and I am positive I am not alone in this. That is not to say I will not help them, its just not a priority at shows. Maybe in some twisted way the Master Smiths are teaching the journeymen how, when and where to sell their knives by not attending the ABS show, just a thought.

Maybe there is too much conflict with the idea of an ABS show to even succeed. Meaning on one hand the ABS itself is all about the education and promotion of the forged blade from a non-profit point of view while on the other hand the membership is for profit at the show. Two totally different viewpoints that do not mesh real well in the real world. I have always felt that the ABS should have had an outside third party promote and run the show due to this conflict.

I posted this because I care about ABS and want to see it progress into the future in a positive way. Over the past few years I have seen a lot of the same negativity that basically destroyed what the Knifemakers Guild was.

Yes I edited a portion of this because after seeing two Board Members post here and having spoken to one on the phone I realized that what I had stated was not accurate, I apologize for that.

I noticed the article and the comment at the end before seeing this post. It was taken as a comment to shame me into going to San Antonio. I have been to every ABS show except the first one. Yes Reno and the Safari Club customers were good to me.

I have been to San Antonio the last 2 years so I have experience at these shows. I will adress the comments and not how sales are.

I thought hammer ins and invitations to my shop were my contribution to encourging Journeyman in the ABS. The show has to stand on it's own and I feel all of us have done our part in trying to make it succesful. I know I have but I cannot continue to support the show without some support from collectors. The ones I know are not supporting the show after the move.

I do not want to turn this into a whine about the show just the comments in the article were uncalled for.

Gary House, master smith

Hi All,

After reading the posts and thinking about it, I realized I'm conflicted a bit.

Being on the Board, I feel that one of my jobs is to help grow and educate those who are interested in what we are all about, " the forged blade ". I do this primarily by putting on the CA hammer-in in Oct. and teaching out of my shop and other shops here in the West. For me that's the most important support I can give to the ABS.

The conflict for me arises when I'm expected to support a show just because I'm a MS. I make knives for a living. All type's of knives. Not just hand forged knives. If a show is a benefit to me then I do it. If not, I don't do it. It's that simple. I'm at a show to sell knives not to teach. Doesn't mean I wont talk to a JS or anybody else for that matter about knife making. I love talking about knives!!!

I hope Tom doesn't mind, but I'm going to ask this question first. Has anyone one thought to ask the MS's why they don't attend the show. Might be interesting in what the have to say.

Take care and stay well

See you in Atlanta

Michael

Michael,

I know you asked Tom first but since I am here I will go ahead and comment. When the show was in Reno I sold well and the potential for customer base growth was basically unlimited because of the Safari Club. I did the first year in Texas and sold well but did not and do not feel the customer base is strong enough to support the expense it takes to make a show pay off. I must feel a show has both strong sales from the table an the potential to produce long term customer growth. The single San Antonio show I attended had good table sales but it was like preaching to the choir. No new customers.

Daniel

Micheal.

I have the same feelings as Daniel. As I have already mentioned I sold knives every year to Safari Club members. Usually on Sunday while they were waiting for their plane to leave.

Also I was asked not to sell damascus steel at the ABS show. This made it diffuclut to sell to the knife makers at the Safari Club as I would step out of the show room to sell hand forged damascus. I did not want to fill my table with steel only be able to sell while I was at my table.

I was developing a new knife customer base for the ABS. I have had none of these sales in San Antonio, even though I have invited my new customers.

San Antonio is hard to fly to from the western states.

I understand the all forged blade concept, but I do know Master Smiths that sell semi production knives to survive. A limeted amount of these sales would help the entire show.

Gary House

Mike,

I have mulled this over all day and it keeps coming back to my business plan. Basically the show did not fit into my plan for taking my business to the next level, plain and simple. Yes I could complain about the lack of sales in San Antonio for myself, lack of potential new customers, leaving an huge new customer base in Reno, or the heat. None of it matters in the big scheme of things and I did not start this thread to attack the ABS show. This is not the first show I have attended and moved on from nor will it be the last. I just could not see any future potential in the direction the show was heading for myself, it was not personal, it was business.

This year I attended the Arkansas Show, and honestly I am more than likely not going to return. Not because sales were bad, or the lack of customers and definitely not because I did not have fun, Everyone treated me exceptionally well as they did in San Antonio. Bottom line is that my business plan is always evolving and changing due to outside and inside factors, some I control and some I do not but I can control which shows I fund and those that do not match or have the potential to support my current criteria for success will not be supported.

I know Daniel and myself are not the only MS' that left the show. I would have expected more participation from my fellow Master Smiths, I started this thread out of frustration and a lack of understanding, to bring issue's to the forefront. This thread has over 200 views so rather than being an outside observer give Kevin and Mike your suggestions, comments and thoughts. If you disagree with me thats great, we need more open discussion between the Board and the Master Smiths.

|quoted:
.......we need more open discussion between the Board and the Master Smiths.

And what could be wrong with more open discussion between the Board and the Master Smiths, and the Journeyman Smiths, and the Apprentice Smiths and all the other members as well?

I see this continuing thread running through this post like the Master Smiths are some separate elite entity that is the only group effected by shows and the business end of it and sales and new customers and such. (As I recall, all of the Master Smiths were Journeyman Smiths just a day before they got the MS stamp)

And that's part of the difficulties we face as a group.

We're all in this together.

Or we're not.

Seems like there's "this" group within the group, and then there's "that" group within the group. Oh, and there's that "other" group within the group.

We all had better start holding hands and scratchin' each other's backs or we are in for more unnecessary work down the road.

|quoted:

We're all in this together.

Or we're not.

Karl Andersen makes a good point. I know that as the Webmaster, Board Member, and a Journeyman Smith I carefully listen equally to the concerns and ideas of all ABS members whether they have just joined the ABS today or have been a member for many years. I have read EVERY post since I created this Forum for the ABS and the concerns voiced in this thread have not gone unheard.

|quoted:

I see this continuing thread running through this post like the Master Smiths are some separate elite entity that is the only group effected by shows and the business end of it and sales and new customers and such.

That is not what this is about or what I am implying at all. Yes I know what its like to be an Apprentice and a Journeyman Smith, and in reality its no different than being a Master Smith. Trust me I still work for every dime I make and I still have to work at the shows to sell my knives. This discussion is about the comment made by Mr. Philips that was directed towards the Master Smiths not the Journeymen or the Apprentices. I do not feel I have in any way tried to offend any of them here and if I have it was not intentional I can assure you.

"...we need more open discussion between the Board and the Master Smiths."

I made that statement because the original question I posed was to the Master Smiths, again sorry if this offends you as it was not meant to eliminate Journeymen or apprentices from open discussion. Once you earn the stamp you soon realize that the whole elite group thing is portrayed upon us by those who are not, I was an apprentice and a journeyman so I am well aware of how they view the Master Smiths, both good and bad. I agree that we are all in this together and I think it would be great if everyone had a voice.

I think Mr. Terrill who is an apprentice smith made a great point with this statement:

"..Mr. Phillips attitudde is the very reason I resigned from the Knifemakers Guild Back in the late 80's."

So where is the guild now? and is this where the ABS is headed?

That is why this thread was started because I wanted to voice an opinion and start an honest conversation. I have no intentions of creating subdivisions or elite groups and I appreciatte Mr. Terrills opinion, Master Smith or not. If you would like to comment Karl as to why I should be present at any knife show to educate Journeymen on how to sell knives even though I am taking a loss financially feel free to do so because that is the side of this discussion that I can not comprehend and am offended by.

I typed up a long post on this thread; then deleted it.

SOME very good points made.

I think that there is a lot of emotion concerning the Expo. On both sides.

Mike

This could potentially be one of the longest threads on this forum! <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//biggrin.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

Or die quickly. <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//cool.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />