Phil, to give a succinct and overall response to your well understood dilemmas, I can suggest advice that was given to me and that I have seen/heard given to others:

Make those knives required to fulfill the testing ramifications, pass the test, and then go back home and make whatever you want to make.

The test, is the test.

We're all required to do it.

It may be the only Dagger you'll ever build - but it's required.

You may never build another Bowie, but don't show up with 5 hunting knives. You need to show latitude and longitude both.

At a recent weekend spent working with Kevin Cashen, he made a rather profound statement, which was "You're going to be getting a "MASTER SMITH RATING"!!!! If you're going to called a MASTER, you had better be able to make ANYTHING!"

And that's what the test is designed to show.

And the Journeyman Smith Rating is on the way to that goal, and should reflect various abilities well, in different styles.

It's pretty well thought out and gets few objections these days, and when it does, they're pretty much always the same.

Just make what they want to see.

And by the way, a "dropped" edge doesn't "PROVE" that it was forged.

Ed Fowler's knives these days come from 5" round steel and don't have a dropped edge?

That's a whole lot of forging.

Hello Phil. Yes it is true that the majority of knives presented for JS judging and MS for that matter do have the "dropped" edge resulting from the pullout when forging the choil. I tend to prefer this style as it lets me completely sharpen the whole edge, with out messing up the plunge cut I just spent so much time on. Thats just me. That being said I make both styles, whatever the customer wants. Think of it that way, you are making five knives for a customer and they want a certain style. Your customer is the judging panel. As Karl stated and I was told the same thing, make what they want to see then when you get your stamp you can make whatever you want. There is the requiremant for different styles of knives with no more than two being the same. Two hunters, two bowies, etc. If you want to make five knives that do not include bowies or fighters, that is your perogative. For me personally if I were judging, I would like to see at least one bowie as I like to see how well the clip is done and I like bowies. I would also think guards as they would like to see knives with guards or at least four of the five. As for the dagger, again, make what they want to see, and if it helps, don't sell it, and consider it an art piece instead of a knife. You have to make it until they change the requirements and I don't think that will happen. It is singly the one knife that will test all your knowledge, because of the complexity and thought and planning required. Also I had not heard that from Kevin but it is a good point. I know that this probably does not help much and I wish you luck. Just my thoughts.

Brion

Thanks Karl and Brion!

I hear you loud and clear. I believe I understand your points. You've answered two of my questions, both of which boiled down to, can I make and submit something different? Short answer: no. Longer answer: make the required stuff for the test, make what you want elsewhere. I don't disagree with those answers; its just I hoped there might be the possibility of creative alternatives. I can certainly appreciate the need to standardize the process so it is replicable and render-able by a diverse body of applicants and judges.

I liked the analogy of making what the customer orders. That's a good point. Unfortunately, I would not make a dagger if a customer ordered one though. I'll have to come up with another way to bend my own rules on that score...if I ever make it that far in the process that is!

I believe I still have one question pending. I understand there will be revised guidelines on the new website, so perhaps it will be answered there. This question is regarding the seeming requirement of characteristics in test knives, such as the dropped blade edge, that are not documented in the guidelines. I understand there will soon be photos of Journeymen's and Mastersmith's five presentation test knives available for viewing on the new website. Dan Cassidy shared some of those with me recently. I believe, without exception every knife I viewed had the dropped blade edge.

Are there other such undocumented presentation knife characteristics candidates need divine? For instance, I was not aware that you could make two knives of the same style, not that I'd necessarily want to. Thanks too for the thoughts on guards and the bowie. Diversity of styles is certainly understandable. I'm a knives-as-tools kind of guy. I had been thinking of knives like...

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Phil,

The "styles" and things like the dropped edges are not specifically "requirements", but more so things that are usually present in an ABS style knife. I think it would be counterproductive to have the rules be any more specific than what they are...knowing about those "little things" such as the dropped edges and such are things that an individual becomes aware of through the process, and what I consider a part of "paying your dues". That just means that you have looked at, and seen enough ABS Makers' knives to know and understand the nuances that go into them.

Having judged at both the JS and MS levels, I can tell you without a doubt the most difficult is the JS level. In my opinion that is because the standard at the JS level is "Excellent", which means that there can be mistakes, and they are somewhat expected. Where the agonizing on the judges part comes in is...is the mistake in question bad enough to fail an individual. It's tough. I still remember my first time judging at the MS level...I was super nervous, because I've been there, and know how much blood, sweat, and tears goes into those knives. The head judge slapped me on the shoulder and said, "Don't worry, this is the easiest judging you'll every do." "If it looks like a mistake, it is a mistake, and they're done." He was right...the MS standard is Outstanding to Superlative.

The key to the either the JS or the MS test is making knives that are simple in design, but super clean. I've seen a lot of individuals fail because they tried to do something to "impress the judges", and done it poorly...what you have to remember is that anything you can do at the JS level, the judges have likely already done. If you choose simple designs, and execute them to the Nth degree, that will "impress" judges more than anything.

One of the the reasons that damascus was deleted from the JS test is because a lot of folks were making/putting it on their test blades, but doing it very poorly, and when they failed, were wailing.... "But thats Damsascus!" "I made Damascus!"

There is certainly a learning curve involved if your planning on testing for JS and MS....but I think it's a vital part of the whole process.

Hi Phil;

Some very good conversation here. Your thoughts on the process makes us think about the process. I'll just address one part here. Dropped edges? Good? bad? a personal opinion? All of the above, maybe. But here's the thing. As an ABS rated smith we want to SEE that you have total control of the medium. Can you pull down an edge in the proper and traditional way? Yes or no. It's that simple.

The judging panel knows that a JS applicant with carbon steel can grind a bar to any shape you so desire. But that slippery slope comes up to haunt you at the MS level because a damascus piece that has a lot of stock removal vs forged closely is VERY obvious. Usually frowned on. MS requires absolute control of the medium. Skils learned at the JS level are critical in your advancing to the next level.

good luck;

Mike

Hi All,

Great topic Phil.

I think I understand where Phil is coming from as I was planning on presenting knives at this year's show in June in an attempt at my JS rating. After several months of working on my five knives I am putting it off until next year. Part of the problem is that I just didn't allow myself enough time to complete the knives while allowing some extra time in case one of the knives needed reworking or a complete re-do. The majority of my frustration came from attempting five ABS styled knives that, so far, have been out side of my experience in one way or another. I have been able to pick the brain of a Master Smith whenever I was up against a wall but in some cases I was on a pretty steep learning curve.

Some of the advice that I was given, in addition to a dropped edge, was that the plunge for the main bevels need to be at or slightly forward of the transition where the blade meets the ricasso. Also the ricasso shouldn't be over 3/4" in length but must also be proportional to the rest of the blade and guard/handle. Another suggestion was that the width of the handle from spine to belly should match the width of the ricasso. This too is a matter of balance and proportion that is more directly related to smaller knives than larger ones. I was also advised not to make a knife with an integral bolster/guard. Another suggestion was that I press fit the guard and avoid any visible seams. This was a tough one for me as I have always soldered my guards which always covered any hairline seams that were visible. In addition, fixing a bad solder job would jeopardize a hand rubbed finish. Sometime I felt I was just going in circles.

To put it simply Phil... give yourself plenty of time, which is a very relative term. For me 5 and a half months ended up being not quite enough. When I got into it I started second guessing myself which resulted in shooting myself in the foot more than once. The other piece of advice has already been covered in another thread... consult as many Masters as you possible can. Getting your work in front of them for critiquing is obviously the best but a picture in an email can get you pretty far in regards to aesthetics and visual balance.

If anyone has any suggestions or advice in addition to the above, please feel free to lay it on me. I'm giving myself a full year this time around if for no other reason than to allow myself to relax. I was way too uptight before.

Rick

I think that is excellent input Rick! All too often the folks that I have helped along to their JS test have done the same thing. I always encourage individuals to start making their presentation knives AT LEAST a year in advance of the testing date. Time gets away all too quickly, and a few have scoffed at me when I told them that...later, as it turned out, they didn't have enough time to complete the knives.

Testing for JS is a serious commitment in time and effort. Like the old saying in the military "Fail to prepare...prepare to fail."

When I've been a judge at the JS level, I always make it a point to ask anyone who fails what their motivations were for testing. I find it ironic that many of them stated that they decided to test because somebody else they knew had done it, so they thought they would "give it a shot". In order to have the drive to successfully complete the JS test, the drive and desire have to come from within...if a person is doing it to "keep up with the Jones", they are doing it for the wrong reasons.

As I mentioned previously, all those things that you mentioned... the dropped edges, the riccasso size/shape, and the ricasso to handle width, are all nuances, that are indicative of an ABS style knife. It's not that those things in and of themselves make or break a particular knife, but when those things are proportional, the knife looks, feels, and works good....something I would hope that we all strive to put into each and every knife we create.

Phil,

You make some really great points concerning your preferences in knife types and styles you want to make. Consider this if you will. For many years I was a pro studio trombonist. I had to record and perform a great many musical styles; from country and western to modern atonal jazz. There was a whole lot of music I was asked to play that I absolutely could not stand to listen to given my druthers, but when I sat down in that chair and the red recording light went on, my only thought was to play it perfectly the first time. That is the mindset of a pro...to get the job done and done right, with a minimum of fuss. There may very well be styles or types you don't care to make for your own reasons. I will suggest this however, the problems that you will face and solve by increasing your range will absolutely better prepare you to take on any kind of blade related challenge. Taking on challenging work of all kinds will expand your repertoire and build your confidence.

Striving to become as good as some and better than most is not a bad way to go at all.

Phil:

When I took my first lessons from Bill Moran in Laramie Wyoming I told him that I did not like the recessed ricasso and specifically asked him if it was possible to forge a blade and establish the performance qualities of a forged blade without the recessed ricasso? Bill"s response was immediate "Sure and here is how!"

He showed me how and I have never forged or made a blade with a recessed ricasso. Personally I consider the recessed ricasso a design fault that may belong to an "art" knife, but an absolute abomination when it comes to knives I consider to be absolutely devoted to function as a hunter or general use knife. I have asked many smiths to defend the recessed ricasso as functional attribute. None have been able to come up with an adequate explanation, other than it is quicker and easier to forge from flat stock and leave the ricasso the same dimensions as the parent steel. One defense that makes sense is that you can use the dropped blade easier on a cutting board to prepare food. I do not chose to make kitchen knives still I have never had any problems cutting up my food with an edge on the same plain as the ricasso.

Personally I consider the dagger to be one of the most useless knives made. OK for sticking someone, but many much more efficient fighters have been designed. When I made the "ART" dagger I felt like I was prostituting my ethics and to this day regret having made it.

Some call the dagger an "ART" knife, this was what it was called when I made mine. Still they describe in detail how you must make it. This is not art, art comes from the soul, it reflects the entire essence of the artist. Great artists make, paint, sing, or create art that reflects their emotion. If your art touches you it will touch others. Today the dagger is known as the "jump through the hoop knife" and this is what it has become. Don't get me wrong, if you or anyone believes daggers or recessed ricassos are art knives this is a personal decision and you have that right, freedom is the essence of art. No one can dictate art to another, schools of art still suffer for trying and create many duplicating machines to the detriment of the art they claim to teach.

I feel that if one day the board truly chooses to move into the art knife, a master would be allowed to make his knife and defend it as art. If this was the case, the "traditional ABS knife" just might have a little more self and originality displayed.

Does a master have to be able to make anything? Absolutely not, if this was the case, the examples of his workmanship to prove his worth would take a life time to complete and few if anyone would be competent to judge. The history of knives is a vast field, man has been making cutting tools for millions of years. If a master can do one thing exceptionally well he will be a master and need no organization to proclaim him as such, he will know.

Good questions!

Phil,

Your original question has prompted a lot of inner reflection, no doubt. It has also proven that we all are a little different in our thinking and that the direction we take in our individual knife/tool making is going to be an expression of ourselves and of our philosophy in life. In that we all have the freedom to do what we want. You'd be surprised at how closely some of your expressed concerns mirror my own.

Mr Fowler said "freedom is the essence of art". Of course I believe this is true to a degree. But, in due respect, complete freedom in most cases, in my opinion, becomes chaotic and dangerous. The ABS and their schools are not teaching "ART" classes. They teach knife making and promote the use of the forged blade. They have and continue to hold to a standard of excellence. Introducing too much freedom will water this standard down to an unclear and indistinct undertaking. Introducing too much philosophical freedom to the testing arrangement will devalue the whole rating system, in as much as we ALL will either be artists or NONE of us will be artists, depending on philosophical viewpoints.

The fact is to accurately retain some order that will allow clear and defined standards, philosophy has to be secondary and knife making primary.

Once the mundane aspects of the tests are over, we can practice our knife making, art, or philosophy with ALMOST complete freedom. Lin

A great dialog I think;

One of the testing applicants at Atlanta this year presented some very non-tradional knives for testing. The work was very clean and well done, showing an ability to perform different techniques in forging, fitting, and finishing. The applicant passed with no problem whatsoever.

The knifemaking world is a global one of styles, patterns, steels, choices and ideas, people and opinions.

To BELIEVE that the test panel will only consider knives built to an " XYZ" pattern fails to consider that the panel is made up of very able smiths who are cabable of discerning poor work from good work in a multitude of styles. This way of thinking may very well limit your style and creativity. To put yourself in a box; so to speak.

To BELIEVE that only the style of knife that you make is the correct and proper way to make a knife puts a smith in the exact same box.

Bladesmithing is an old and new craft with many avenues of expression.

Simply put; a bladesmith CHOOSES to persue or NOT to persue an ABS rating stamp.

regards;

Mike

Here's a new thought for the thread...

I was told that the edge for JS testing is "OK" if ground on but a convex edge that is included in the blade finish is preferred, especially on larger knives. And that for MS only a convex edge will pass muster.

Thanks,

Rick

I agree with Lin and Mike. There is too much philosophy being thrown around and I think some folks tend to over-think things. This is all pretty simple. The ABS gives you the guidelines. Nowhere does it say that the dropped edge is required. And I don't think it says you specifically can't submit Klingon weaponry...but I wouldn't. Relax and produce clean, flowing, ergonomically comfortable knives with good fit & finish. They should above all else appear professional. I'm an ABS judge and can tell you that the pass/fail decision is often made before ever picking up a knife. We go on to methodically examine every piece out of respect to the maker and to give him/her every benifit. But a clunky knife with bad fit & finish jumps out at you.

I've had to give the bad news to a few candidates who failed the test. To the best of my recollection, when asked if they ever attend ABS functions or have sat through B.R.Hughes's seminar on how to pass your JS & MS tests, the answer has always been "No." I've had my MS for years and I still attend it from time to time. The resources are there. Two ABS schools. ABS hammer-ins all over the country (Maybe not Hawaii <img src=' http://www.americanbladesmiths.com/ipboard/public/style_emoticons//sad.gi f' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' /> ). Master Smiths all over the US and many other countries. It is our obligation as Master Smiths to help up-and-coming bladesmiths. Seek out those Masters and show them your work. Ask them to critique your work, not just look at it.

The quillion dagger is the most important knife on the masters test. It is indeed meant to be an art knife, such as may have been owned by royalty. But in the making of that one knife, the candidate will incorporate most if not all of the knifemaking skills he has learned (minimally) to date. All of these skills will be manifested in a single piece.

To paraphrase Mike Williams, the requirements are laid out for all applicants. If you don't like them or agree with them, nobody is making you take the test. And you may never make another quillion dagger, but you will make one if you want to pass that test. I wake up every day, proud to be an ABS MS. That I put the work in and was passed by all six judges. It is a tremendous honor but be prepared to put the work in.

Cheers,

Terry Vandeventer

Outstanding replies! Master Smiths Terry Vandeventer and Mike Williams could not have given better advice to JS and MS candidates in their posts. This discussion has given me several ideas for future ABS Forum Topics and Website articles which will focus on these issues and provide advice and guidance to those ABS members working to earn Journeyman Smith or Master Smith ratings.