Steve, if it is done well, I have no issue with it at all. Especially with some natural materials.

Brion

Thanks Brion appreciate the input.I know some of this is subjective.

Steve

The rules are written. There seems to always be things left out of the rules and questions such as these help to refine and clarify the intent of the rules. On the other hand, the rules are a protection to the applicant. When the rules are followed, the applicant should feel confident that, as long as the technical requirements are met, that he wont be slammed out of left field by an arbitrary opinion.

I have been asked the same question and I think Karl and I have discussed it as well. If I were to be taking the test again, and I wanted to use a museum fit, I would only use it one or two of the test group, and only on those with natural materials prone to shrinkage. The rest, I would flush the material with the ferrule as the case may dictate. I would choose my materials based upon this, as well as many other factors that one has to consider when making these five knives, design being the foremost factor.

The rules might says something about the maker using the best materials available for these knives. Does this mean they should have the most expensive materials? Ivory, Gold? I say not necessarily. While the maker may want to use these expensive materials on one or more knives, such as the art dagger, but those materials may not be inappropriate for a basic hunting knife. In other words, If I want to use stag, I should use the best piece of stag available. If I use blackwood, I should use the best blackwood available. I believe this is a reasonable approach to making these decisions. Following the rules, but free to have some latitude within these rules.

Thanks Lin.

Lots of times you here things, so it's always good to get the facts.

I know judging is subjective, so the rules/guide lines help focus on what's expected. There is no way to outline every aspect,That's what makes this forum a great asset.

Thanks Steve

This is an interesting topic regarding the 'museum fit' handles. I museum fit almost all my knives, certainly all my hidden tang ones because I think it's a superior method to flush sanding and it addresses a problem that almost all of us have experienced.

Almost all natural materials in almost all climates will shrink/expand slightly, even with the change of seasons and humidity in the same environment. A natural handle sanded flush to the guard or fittings can almost always be slightly (and sometimes not so slightly) felt with the thumbnail at one time of the year or another. The proud or museum fit handle eliminates this.

I'd be concerned that bringing flush sanded wood handles to hot and humid Atlanta would reveal this issue. I had planned to museum fit any/all of my hidden tang submission knives and probably will plan to still do so.

I think that, as you all mentioned, doing anything well and deliberate is the key. I think it takes more skill and effort to nicely museum fit a handle than it does sanding it flush.

But there could be a room full of judges who disagree with me.

John, I mentioned that, where appropriate, you might consider presenting a knife or two with flush fit. What makes it appropriate? Design and choice of material. You are the designer and the chooser. You could use a handle material that is not natural and wont shrink and show the judges what they want to see. The rest of them can be museum fit. I still think that is reasonable. I will admit that if I was to use Micarta on a knife, it would be a hunter and it would show case the basic fit and finish along with practical design. But once you've done that, you're covered as far as the flush fit issue goes. These are just ways you can do what you want to do and at the same time give the judges their due.

Hi Lin. Yeah, that's a good idea. I had thought that it would be a good idea to make one small hunter that was a full tang with tapered tang and bolsters anyway. Maybe flush fit g-10 with the bolsters would be a good idea for that.

My thinking was that I would try to bring knives with as much diversity as possible so that it demonstrated a wider range of ability rather than 5 knives that all showcased the same construction methods but only with different sizes and materials.

Thanks for all the responses here. It's very helpful when you're starting to plan this journey.

I am getting a bit of a mixed signal on this. I remember reading that natural materials like wood bone antler or ivory were recommended for test knives, bu t this is making me feel as though that is not the case... I was planing on stableized wood in any case but I am still feeling a bit of a mixed signal.

Matthew, stabilized wood is fine for me. I would probably not use any wildly colored wood, natural is better. As far as micarta

or g10, if the fit and finish is really good, I would not have an issue, but I would only put it on one. Again no wildly colored stuff. Someone told me to think of it this way. You are presenting knives to your best customer and an experienced collector. Would they want micarta or a top quality natural material? So consider you have seven very experienced collectors. It is not a rule on what type of handle material.

Brion

Aspiring smiths;

On the js testing panel knives; we prefer natural materials. Stabilized wood ok.

Micarta, G10 and other synthetics I would think on more than one knife would be perceived poorly.

This is not rocket science guys; look at pictures of knives that PASSED and use those as a general guide.

The js test is just that. A test.

Can you make and finish a blade in different styles properly. Can you mount your blades in various handle materials that you can finish and shape properly.

Can you present a knife that is pleasing in proportion, in appearance, and in balance and handling.

This is a traditional, forged knives organization. All the judges are aware of this.

Look at PASSED js knives; make knives like them, pass the test.

Mike Williams

js panel judge

Matthew, If the test required only one knife, I can see where all these varying opinions might be considered mixed messages. But there are 5 knives. This allows some freedom of design and material choices. Do you think the judges want all five knives to look the same? No. Or else only one or two might be required. Having five implies that there should be some variation. Variation in design, style, and materials. Naturally, the judges want you to use a high standard when considering all three aspects of these five knives.

Again, in my opinion, this does not mean you should not use Micarta on a test knife. It might be absolutely appropriate for a particular knife. But would I use Micarta on all 5? No, because that material might only be appropriate on a hard using knife where Micarta is a practical choice for that knife due to it's intended purpose or harsh climate. It just happens that a hunting knife also lends well to flush fit, so I would use that one and possibly only knife to show the judges that I can flush fit.

I dare say that if a maker, whether testing for Mastersmith or Journeyman, uses Micarta on a well designed and technically (fit and finish) well done knife, he will get passing marks on the knife. That's just one knife. There are 4 more to go that will require you as the maker to design each one based on your taste.

JS Candidates please listen to the sound advice given by Master Smiths Mike Williams, Brion Tomberlin, and Lin Rhea.

Also, I have a thread posted on the ABS Forum where I obtained and posted photos of the JS and MS knives that were passed by the Judging Panels at the 2015 Atlanta Blade Show. You can see what the ABS judges passed and what materials were used by the successful candidates, Click: 2015 Atlanta JS AND MS Judging

thank you for the clarification, the consensus was my original understanding but the above thread had started to make me second guess my assumptions.

MP

|quoted:

...I think it takes more skill and effort to nicely museum fit a handle than it does sanding it flush...

I agree with this, if it is done correctly. Simply sanding everything flush is what I did back when I was getting started, then I learned the skills to fit things up, disassemble and finish things out before reassembling. One can sand things flush and then do a nice chamfer to eliminate sharp metal edges as well. The farther you travel with test knives the more climate changes there will be, I think it would be tragic to punish somebody for the results of natural phenomena if compelled to use a fit that that is particularly prone to it.

But what Mike pointed out is important- mix it up. If all of your knives are done the same way it indicates a lack of diversity of skills, and begins to look like you have an issue you are consistently compensating for. I also can’t agree more with the advice to look at JS or MS knives that have passed but I would emphatically add the caveat to look at JS and MS knives that have passed recently. We have already discussed how some of the rules have changed over time and so I think it would be dangerous to use a ten year old JS knife as your guide.